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No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana? - Dhamma Wheel

No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Mojo
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No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Wed May 01, 2013 3:28 am

I have decided to make Anapanasati my main practice and have been doing it for the past couple of weeks, but have not had any sensations arise that I would consider piti or sukkha. So if I'm staying true to anapanasati, afaik this means that I cannot continue until they arise?

Also, there needs to be a world buddhist conference to decide on the authoritive translation/commentary for Anapanasati... XD

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed May 01, 2013 3:51 am

I would suggest continuing in your practice until you reach some level of piti or sukkha, ideally Jhana. It may be beneficial to take up walking meditation as well, to satisfy the urge for more bare insight practice that doesn't interfere with your on-the-cushion work.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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Mojo
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Wed May 01, 2013 4:27 am

Good idea about the walking meditation. I'd probably be more interesred in a fast walk. In the past, I've just counted the number of paces to each in or out breath - so I suppose that would be considered more of a concentration practice? I'm not sure about walking vipassana. I watched a mahasi style walking meditation on youtube once. It seemed too chatty to me. Step-ping-right-step-ping-left... Perhaps more of a bare attention style would be easier for me to stick with?

Also, I'm only interested in the sutta jhanas, not the commentarial ones. Dunno if that makes a difference. I think some people consider piti and sukkha 1st and 2nd jhana? Thereps soooooooo many opinions out there...

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LonesomeYogurt
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Location: America

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed May 01, 2013 4:49 am

Most traditional anapanasati practice works in the sutta Jhana framework - sometimes people call these "Vipassana Jhanas." Deep Jhana is hardly suitable for insight!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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Spiny Norman
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Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 01, 2013 9:48 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

Zakattack
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Wed May 01, 2013 11:17 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 01, 2013 1:32 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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daverupa
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Wed May 01, 2013 3:44 pm

I'd suggest that the satipatthana foundation of anapanasati could be improved if, when seated, there doesn't arise some measure of physical & mental ease (piti & sukha, respectively) when the kaya-sankhara are calmed.

They aren't jhana factors at first, and expectations are problematic anyway; the instructions allow one to tune in to citta-sankhara, just as the first tetrad allows one to tune in to kaya-sankhara, and calming these is the way to jhana, not strenuous attention to piti- or sukha-generation.

If you're worried about their apparent lack, well that's a hindrance which is directly opposing the awakening factors...

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reflection
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby reflection » Wed May 01, 2013 3:56 pm

As you said, there are many opinions out there. It's true. But why not simply put them all aside when doing meditation? Forget about them. Just stay with the breath, ease into it. Don't worry about continuing onto another state, try to be more deeply with the present breath. That's it. That's all.

I mean, you are doing the practice for a few weeks and are thinking about the jhanas - the states that are the last factor of the 8-fold path? You can't realistically expect to abandon the 5 hindrances that easily. It takes a lot of practice to weaken them. Just take it easy and it'll all come with time. :anjali:

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Mojo
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Wed May 01, 2013 4:09 pm

I generally practice 15-20 at a time, 30 min max - once or twice a day - often outdoors with plenty of birds around, which considering Buddha's instructions for suitable environments such as in a forest, I would think this to be ok.

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Mojo
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Wed May 01, 2013 4:19 pm

I'm really just looking a signpost that I'm doing the first four steps in such a way that will allow me to progress further. Piti and sukkha seem like sign posts to me.

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fivebells
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby fivebells » Wed May 01, 2013 5:31 pm

The way I do it (Thanissaro's way, basically), piti and sukkha and pretty critical. Try "breathing" through various parts of your body, and rest attention on a part where the associated sensations are comfortable and pleasant. See his book for more details.

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed May 01, 2013 8:43 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby santa100 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:59 pm


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marc108
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby marc108 » Wed May 01, 2013 11:48 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Mojo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Thu May 02, 2013 12:28 am


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fivebells
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby fivebells » Thu May 02, 2013 12:49 am

Not familiar with the distinction, so I may be misunderstanding, but where he believes them to contradict, he sides with the suttas.

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Mojo
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Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:23 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Mojo » Thu May 02, 2013 3:21 am


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LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
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Location: America

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu May 02, 2013 3:53 am

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 02, 2013 4:40 am



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