Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

While what is being described is, of course, referring what would be called jhana meditation, and since I really do not have an interest in this issue, I am not going to discuss the point how jhana are understood in the suttas. I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

2pennyworth wrote:
Choose a primary object
Rest attention on primary object
Recognise when attention has been caught by something other than primary object
Acknowledge secondary object arisen
Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
Return attention to primary object
Repeat as necessary

Along with the instructions to investigate anicca, anatta, dukkha nature of all arising 'objects'.

Recently I've applied the instructions of Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi, or rather, his commentary of the Buddha's instructions for tranquil insight, to my own practice and found them to be extremely effective. It seems that the simple but seemingly vital additions/modifications Ven Bhante makes to the above basic practice instructions makes all the difference.

Ven Bhante Vimalaramsi's 'vital' additions/modifications:

Choose a primary object
Rest attention on primary object
Recognise when attention has been caught by something other than primary object
Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
Return attention to primary object along with the tranquil, uplifted mind.
Repeat as necessary
  • Release attention from secondary object/'distraction'
    Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
    Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
It is my understanding that a high level of sustained concentration is required from most Vipassana cultivation methods. Although it is a different type of concentration than the Samatha methods, Bhante makes many references to the fact that momentary, access, and absorption concentration all produce the same restrictive results. Thus every mention of "concentration" inherently refers to both Vipassana and Samatha practices. He actually states that these types of concentration are never even mentioned in the Suttas. The Vipassana method of dealing with pain is also mentioned in the quotes I provided. :rofl:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote:
I do not see, however, in this quote anything really addresses the issue Burmese Vipassana Meditation practice.
It is my understanding that a high level of sustained concentration is required from most Vipassana cultivation methods. Although it is a different type of concentration than the Samatha methods, Bhante makes many references to the fact that momentary, access, and absorption concentration all produce the same restrictive results. Thus every mention of "concentration" inherently refers to both Vipassana and Samatha practices. He actually states that these types of concentration are never even mentioned in the Suttas. The Vipassana method of dealing with pain is also mentioned in the quotes I provided.
Firstly, the level of concentration required for vipassana meditation does not cause the "restrictive results." Also, if we are going to limit ourselves to what is explicitly, and literally, spelled out in the suttas, then his "6-Rs" will not be found.
"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind."
While any meditative practice/technique can be used for "repressing" one's experience (including the 6-Rs), what is being described here is a very shallow, inexperienced understanding/experience of vipassana practice. It does not reflect the teachings I have gotten from experienced Mahasi Saydaw style teachers over the last 40+ years, nor does it reflect, in the least, my experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
2pennyworth wrote:Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
The first can be done via the breath... "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." (MN 44) and "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'" (MN 118)

Smiling is just smiling. See also this brief TED Talk on The Hidden Power Of Smiling - https://www.ted.com/talks/ron_gutman_th ... of_smiling

:)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
2pennyworth wrote:Relax physical manifestation of craving - ie tightness and tension in head and body
Re-smile (promotes a joyful, uplifted mind)
tiltbillings wrote:The question is: How is this done in actual practice?
The first can be done via the breath... "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." (MN 44) and "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'" (MN 118)

Smiling is just smiling.

:)

Metta,
Retro. :)
A rather conceptually busy practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
barcsimalsi
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by barcsimalsi »

retrofuturist wrote:
Smiling is just smiling.
Perhaps it is gladdening/satisfying the mind like in the 3rd tetrad;
[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'
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VinceField
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by VinceField »

Firstly, the level of concentration required for vipassana meditation does not cause the "restrictive results."
I guess I'll take your word for it..
what is being described here is a very shallow, inexperienced understanding/experience of vipassana practice. It does not reflect the teachings I have gotten from experienced Mahasi Saydaw style teachers over the last 40+ years, nor does it reflect, in the least, my experience.
Care to elaborate? :thanks:

Just want to be sure you are being :quote: straightforward. :thumbsup: Reviewing your activity and behavior on past Bhante threads, it seems you have a peculiar attachment to this issue.. :cry:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:A rather conceptually busy practice.
To be clear, are you calling the Buddha's instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta "conceptually busy"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
Smiling is just smiling.
Perhaps it is gladdening/satisfying the mind like in the 3rd tetrad;
[10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.'
Potentially... it certainly wouldn't hurt!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:A rather conceptually busy practice.
To be clear, are you calling the Buddha's instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta "conceptually busy"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is interesting is watching the occasional expressions of struggle we see here with a conceptual practice such as noting, which is a lot simpler than using the phrases of MN 118. If one takes MN 118 as having to be practiced by actually using the set phrases of the sutta, it is a more complicated practice, which certainly would involve a significant conceptual learning curve. And initially, and traditionally, such a practice of using MN 118 would, of course, require learning the sutta by heart. As one uses such a practice, becomes proficient with it, the conceptual framework begins to drop away, as happens with the noting practice.

What is really interesting about MN 118 is the question of how one really puts it into practice. I have read/heard any number of differing ideas as to how that is done. So, yes, initially MN 118 is initially conceptually busy, but in my opinion, which no one in the whole world has to share, Dhamma bhavana boils down, as it matures, to:
  • "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

    "When, Bahiya, for you there will be only the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of suffering."
    Udana 10
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote:
Firstly, the level of concentration required for vipassana meditation does not cause the "restrictive results."
I guess I'll take your word for it..
Okay.
what is being described here is a very shallow, inexperienced understanding/experience of vipassana practice. It does not reflect the teachings I have gotten from experienced Mahasi Saydaw style teachers over the last 40+ years, nor does it reflect, in the least, my experience.
Care to elaborate? :thanks:

Just want to be sure you are being :quote: straightforward. :thumbsup: Reviewing your activity and behavior on past Bhante threads, it seems you have a peculiar attachment to this issue..
Simply, I find it unfortunate that methodologies and monks and traditions are being grossly misrepresented by Vamalaramsi.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by tiltbillings »

VinceField wrote:
Just want to be sure you are being :quote: straightforward. :thumbsup: Reviewing your activity and behavior on past Bhante threads, it seems you have a peculiar attachment to this issue.. :cry:
I do not know what threads you have looked at, but rather than repeating myself, this thread http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 12#p165199 is a more detailed discussion of Vimalaramsi, which involves some of his followers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by Mkoll »

VinceField wrote:"The Lord Buddha had never taught suppression of any experience nor did he teach a meditation that causes mind to fix or to absorb into the meditation object. Remember, he rejected every form of 'concentration meditation' as not being the correct way. Rather, suffering must be accepted with equanimity, full awareness or strong attention and not identifying with it or taking that pain personally."
I don't agree with the emphasized part of that quote. I think the Buddha did teach suppression in many ways. For example, one way is found in MN 20:
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
-MN 20
Maybe Ven. Vimalaramsi is using the word "suppressing" to mean something different than what the dictionary says. But if "beat down, constrain, and crush" and that vivid simile don't qualify as suppression, I don't know what could.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Post by Spiny Norman »

tiltbillings wrote: What is really interesting about MN 118 is the question of how one really puts it into practice. I have read/heard any number of differing ideas as to how that is done.
Yes, there are many conflicting interpretations of how the 4 tetrads should be applied. I found it all rather confusing and ended up reverting to a much simpler approach.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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