Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

[fraaJad]

From what I have understood from Bhante's teachings, the more I allow these thoughts to exist without attachment and the more I let them go in my meditations, the less they will arise and the more they will dissolve until they no longer exist. I understand this process as a progressive release of attachment from the hinderance- from these memories and regrets (and whatever else may arise). I was wondering if anyone has any further thoughts or experience with this process.

Hi Vince,

Definitely. It is just restlessness -- don't analyze it too much. Thoughts are just thoughts, and you can 6R those. I know it's hard to let go of thinking -- even thinking about meditation!!
But that is the beauty of the 6Rs. They apply to *everything* that comes up. Thoughts, pain, sleepiness -- just keep 6Ring until your meditation timer goes off. (And even after that. )

Just curious, have you considered switching to metta? I'm not personally condoning it, since I've never tried doing the breath. But, Bhante V does recommend metta to most of his students.


FJ

[2pennyworth]

Vince,

Just curious, have you considered switching to metta? I'm not personally condoning it, since I've never tried doing the breath. But, Bhante V does recommend metta to most of his students.

The seeds of hindrances are sown by lack of applying mindfulness in day-to-day life (easier said than done! takes persistence, I run afoul constantly!), not helped by not sticking to the precepts. (No-one's perfect, Buddha excepted!). We create negative karma, we need to lessen that as much as possible for the benefit of others by creating positive karma.

But you should be kinder to yourself; first 10 mins of metta practice you generate feelings of loving-kindness directed towards yourself before directing it to a chosen spiritual friend. Feelings of unworthiness will hinder you, just as feelings of "I am awesome!" will.

So, I'd second fraaJad's recommendation.

This is also a very powerful phrase to remember: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not myself".

[2pennyworth]

I also recommend studying the 'Wheel of Life':

http://www.buddhanet.net/wheel2.htm

[VinceField]

From my understanding of Bhante's teachings, one method is to concentrate on breathing and relaxing, and another technique is metta/loving-kindness.

What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?

[2pennyworth]

From my understanding of Bhante's teachings, one method is to concentrate on breathing and relaxing, and another technique is metta/loving-kindness.

What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?

Put quite simply, I very much underestimated the power of loving kindness. Think about it, what better way to overcome the unwholesome than genuine loving kindness?Hate will not be overcome by hate, but by love. Eventually leading to dispassion and equanimity as we see these things clearly as impersonal through wisdom.

[VinceField]

I suppose I feel like creating the feeling of loving kindness is more of a fabrication than an experience of reality, a fabrication that perhaps can interfere with certain natural processes that would otherwise be encountered during mindfulness meditation. This is my initial thought after an intense period of vipassana meditation studies. I have yet to read or hear Bhante's teachings of metta so I will look into this and perhaps gain a better understanding.

[2pennyworth]

I suppose I feel like creating the feeling of loving kindness is more of a fabrication than an experience of reality, a fabrication that perhaps can interfere with certain natural processes that would otherwise be encountered during mindfulness meditation. This is my initial thought after an intense period of vipassana meditation studies. I have yet to read or hear Bhante's teachings of metta so I will look into this and perhaps gain a better understanding.

That's what I thought too. Just give it a go for a week, pick a spiritual friend (male, non family member, someone you know personally who is alive). And work from the heart.

[VinceField]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

[2pennyworth]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

Before I integrated loving kindness meditation into my "arsenal"! I practiced mindfulness of breath, open awareness and noting practice. It's good do do a bit of everything in my opinion, try stuff out, as they all have their different strengths and may be more suitable at different times. Sometimes a fresh angle can provide new insight, stops you from being automatic and complacent. I haven't been doing loving kindness for very long at all, only a few months! But im lucky in that i have a lot of time and secluded peace and quiet to dedicate to practice. I found it to be v effective, especially in terms of lessening the pain experienced with my reoccuring illness. Like I say, I just didn't quite appreciate the power of loving kindness. (Sounds cheesy, but there it is) I'll PM you with more detail later, gotta go now!



EDIT: but its important to really get into one practice for a period and devote time to it. IMO

[dhammarelax]

Will do.

Do you exclusively meditate on loving kindness or do you do breath relaxation too? I'm also curious as to when you switched to metta, what you were doing before metta, and what differences you saw in your development after the switch.

Thanks, your advice is very much appreciated!

Before I integrated loving kindness meditation into my "arsenal"! I practiced mindfulness of breath, open awareness and noting practice. It's good do do a bit of everything in my opinion, try stuff out, as they all have their different strengths and may be more suitable at different times. Sometimes a fresh angle can provide new insight, stops you from being automatic and complacent. I haven't been doing loving kindness for very long at all, only a few months! But im lucky in that i have a lot of time and secluded peace and quiet to dedicate to practice. I found it to be v effective, especially in terms of lessening the pain experienced with my reoccuring illness. Like I say, I just didn't quite appreciate the power of loving kindness. (Sounds cheesy, but there it is) I'll PM you with more detail later, gotta go now!



EDIT: but its important to really get into one practice for a period and devote time to it. IMO

Hi 2pennyworth

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination, and because of this I recommend you to follow this method, I doubt that doing breathing meditation you can reach it in less than one day so if speed is important to you the Brahmaviharas are the way to go, I dont think that doing more than one practice at the same time is good, meditation is a practice that leads to the "reprogramming" of our reactions to the distractions or hindrances or situations, if you do 2 practices then this reprogramming gets more complicated, you are supposed to meditate all day, which means you have to keep your mediation object in mind all day (not to get absorbed in to it), this is a habit that needs to be developed and having 2 meditation objects seems to make things harder, also dont mix methods, when I first came across Bhantes V. method I didn't followed it exactly and I decided to do "the brahmaviharas at the breath" I got some very interesting results but the hindrance attack that came afterwards was very big and I managed it poorly because I didnt apply the "hindrances are your friends" principle, it seems that the breathing meditation is more appropriate for people that think too much like engineers and such, the rest of us we do fine with the brahmaviharas. I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

On a lighter note I wonder where the smilie with the 2 machine guns could be used in a forum like this, smile, keep with your object of meditation, 6r and keep backing away.

Let me know when you see nama-rupa

With metta
dhammarelax

[VinceField]

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination.

Wow, that is quite the claim of attainment! Good for you. How long had you been meditating before switching to Vim's method?

I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

Recommended them for what? When it comes to developing a meditation practice that leads to liberation, the Buddha made very clear statements about what method to use.

From the Satipatthana Sutta:

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.

From the Anapanasati Sutta:

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

As far as I know, neither of these instructions mention the Brahma Viharas, but rather have mindfulness of breathing as their foundation. According to my understanding of the teachings, the Brahma Viharas do not lead the practitioner past the first four material jhanas.

[dhammarelax]

I have been practicing with Bhante Vimalaramsi Brahmaviharas method for a few months now, the progress I had has been amazing, the very first day I decided to follow exactly his instructions I went through all the jhanas and reached cessation of perception and feeling, then I saw dependent origination.

Wow, that is quite the claim of attainment! Good for you. How long had you been meditating before switching to Vim's method?

I havent read the full 86 000 suttas that are meant to compose the entire canon but from what I heard the budha recommended the breathing mediation about 9 times, while recommending the brahmaviharas a few hundred times.

Recommended them for what? When it comes to developing a meditation practice that leads to liberation, the Buddha made very clear statements about what method to use.

From the Satipatthana Sutta:

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference.

From the Anapanasati Sutta:

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

As far as I know, neither of these instructions mention the Brahma Viharas, but rather have mindfulness of breathing as their foundation. According to my understanding of the teachings, the Brahma Viharas do not lead the practitioner past the first four material jhanas.

Hi VinceField

I had been meditating for about ten years before I used Bhante Vimalramsis method, I don't mean that mindfulness of breathing or the four foundations are not methods that will take you to final liberation if practiced correctly without a doubt they will, what I am saying is that the Buddha recommended the brahamaviharas much more often than he recommended the Anapanasati method.

As I mentioned I dont have the full list but on SN: 46.054 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) it is explained that the 1rst brahamavihara (loving kindness) leads you to the 4rth jhana in the case on one who has penetrated to no higher release (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through good will has the beautiful as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the second brahamavihara (compassion) leads you to the sphere of infinitude of space (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through compassion has the sphere of the infinitude of space as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the 3rd brahamavihara (empathetic joy) leads you to infinitude of consciousness (I tell you, monks, awareness-release through empathetic joy has the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.) the 4rth brahavihara leads you to nothingness ( I tell you, monks, awareness-release through equanimity has the sphere of nothingness as its excellence — in the case of one who has penetrated to no higher release.") so from here is clear that the brahamaviharas go a long way. I can vouch for this on my own practice as well it works exactly like that.

Also on AN 8.63 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) we have another example of using (not only) the brahamaviras this time for full arahatship. On MN 52.8, 9, 10, 11, (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) we also have similar information about their reach.

Let me know if you need more material.

With Metta
dhammarelax

[VinceField]

what I am saying is that the Buddha recommended the brahamaviharas much more often than he recommended the Anapanasati method.

I understand. My question is, what did he recommend the BVs for? Perhaps he prescribed different practices for different purposes.

The Buddha clearly explains the path to liberation in the Satipatthana Sutta, and the BVs aren't mentioned. So if the BVs more effectively lead to liberation, why did the Buddha not teach this?

I do believe that many monks and scholars agree that according to the Suttas, the BVs take the person up to the fourth material jhana and no farther.

[dhammarelax]

Check the suttas I quoted, you will see there what are the brahmaviharas recomended for. Also you can see that the brahmaviharas lead you higher than the 4rth Jhana.

[badscooter]

Check the suttas I quoted, you will see there what are the brahmaviharas recomended for. Also you can see that the brahmaviharas lead you higher than the 4rth Jhana.

The BV's won't lead to full liberation.. The buddha stated one can be born in the Devas world from the practice of the BV's..

Let's not forget the buddha taught many different kinds of practice for different people. Be careful of someone that teaches a catch all technique that works for everyone!!! Not even the Buddha taught the same meditation techniques to everybody.

Kind regards