Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly without?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 11:15 am

mikenz66 wrote:
2pennyworth wrote:For what it's worth, I think the pertinent issue here is beginning to see how the way one habitually greets the hindrances has an effect. ....

Which is something emphasised by many teachers.

I've nothing against Ven V's instructions, they seem consistent with the suttas, and many other teachers. What I always find problematical (not just in this case) is claims that others have overlooked various stuff. In most cases I'm familiar with, these sorts of claims appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach. And, by this I mean not just their introductory instructions --- one has to look at their whole "package".

:anjali:
Mike


Hi Mike. It wasn't my intention was to bash the practice instructions of other teachers in this post, just explore the topic of the link between the arsing of craving and the manifestation of physical and tangible tightness and tension in the head. Ven V's emphasis on the specific link between the arsing of craving and the manifestation of physical and tangible tightness and tension in the head was a new one to me, but perhaps this is due to my lack of thorough knowledge of other's teachings? I can only speak of my own experience. Ven V's advice or emphasis in this respect, to me, sounded too trite to be of any major potential benefit initially. But i applied the practice instructions and after years of previous practice found that I was making fresh progress which to me, was profound in its results, and not least the speed of the "progress".
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 11:21 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question is: How is this done in actual practice?


I can only speak from my own experience, but initially (as with most, if not all, aspects in practice) simply bringing awareness to it, or becoming aware of it. Like I say, at first because this was all news to me, I had no way to do this, but little-by-little, with warmth and patience, just gently and openly exploring this whole phenomena and becoming familiar with it along with the intention to release this tension/tightness, it just sort of started happening. I'm sorry i can't be more specific.
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 11:36 am

Mkoll wrote:
VinceField wrote:"The Lord Buddha had never taught suppression of any experience nor did he teach a meditation that causes mind to fix or to absorb into the meditation object. Remember, he rejected every form of 'concentration meditation' as not being the correct way. Rather, suffering must be accepted with equanimity, full awareness or strong attention and not identifying with it or taking that pain personally."


I don't agree with the emphasized part of that quote. I think the Buddha did teach suppression in many ways. For example, one way is found in MN 20:

"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
-MN 20


Maybe Ven. Vimalaramsi is using the word "suppressing" to mean something different than what the dictionary says. But if "beat down, constrain, and crush" and that vivid simile don't qualify as suppression, I don't know what could.


Hi Mkoll. Interesting you should site that passage, as Ven V believes that to be an addition made later to the suttas which, if read in context to the rest, does not fit in, and is in fact clumsy in comparison to the general flow of other parts which surround it as well as outright contradicting many other parts of the Buddha's teachings. In fact, he believes that very passage is where a lot of confusion surrounding this whole topic is borne. And I think gets to the crux of this whole debate.

Quote from one of Ven V's Dhamma talks:

So, when you're practicing the 6Rs, you are practicing Right Effort, and there's four kinds of Right
Effort. Recognizing that there's an unwholesome state that has arisen, letting go of that
unwholesome state and relaxing, bringing up a wholesome state - smiling and your object of
meditation - staying with your object of meditation, staying with that wholesome state. Now, as you
might have noticed I kind of snuck in the 6Rs, because the 6Rs and Right Efforts are one and the
same thing. So, that's basically what this is telling you to do right here.

Repeats : "thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give
attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome."
MN:
When he gives attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome, then any evil
unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him
and subside.

BV:
So, this particular sutta is recommended very strongly by just about everybody that practices
Theravada Buddhism, but they always seem to stress the last part of this. I'm going to read you
the last part. Now, what I'm trying to show you with the hindrances is how to lovingly accept the
hindrance and not fight with it then not try to control it. Just let it be and it'll start to fade away by
itself, right? Ok, it says...

MN:
7. (v) "If, while he is giving attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, there still
arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then,
with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat
down, constrain, and crush mind with mind. [121]

BV:
Does that sound like a peaceful kind of meditation to you? Now, what's happened is this particular
sutta was added later, and they took part of this from another sutta. They took exactly the same
words, but with this, what the Buddha is saying was "This is a practice that I tried while I was still a
bodhisattva trying to become a Buddha, and I found out it didn't work". And it's exactly the same
wording.


- source: http://talks.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/ ... 080302.pdf

If anyone feels they have hit a plateau in their practice, maybe they should just give Ven V's methods a shot, just a couple of weeks or a month of sincerely and exclusively applying "his" practice instructions. And see what happens.
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 08, 2014 3:07 pm

hi 2pennyworth,
2pennyworth wrote: Ven V's emphasis on the specific link between the arsing of craving and the manifestation of physical and tangible tightness and tension in the head was a new one to me, but perhaps this is due to my lack of thorough knowledge of other's teachings?

Physical manifestations arising due to mental processes are discussed by just about everyone, as far as I can recall. Again, it may be just a matter of different ways of expressing such things, and they may not identify specific places...

:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 08, 2014 3:23 pm

robertk wrote:http://www.dhammasukha.org/ven-bhante-vimalaramsi.html
background
Bhante Vimalaramsi has studied with several monks who held the title of “Bhivamsa”. Among them were Venerable U Pandita, U Lakkhana, U Silananda, U Janaka, U Dhammananda, U Dhammapia.
He further studied with The Mingun Sayadaw, who had memorized the entire Tripitika,
Sayadaw U Thatilla, who had a pure audiographic memory was one of his teachers.

....
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".

All I can say is that what his criticisms not appear to me to apply to the various teachers that I have mentioned, most of whom have studied with some of the teachers you mention.

I am not interested in criticising Ven V. As I said, I find his teaching to be generally in line with what I have learned from other teachers, so I find his criticisms puzzling.

:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 08, 2014 4:07 pm

Hi All,

Maybe it would be helpful to look at the five hindrances (sensory desire, ill-will, sloth/torpor, restlessness/worry, and doubt), and then think about whether it is possible, useful or feasible to try to suppress any of them during an actual practice.

For example, how do we "suppress" the torpor, or doubt?

The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.

If the act of "suppressing" develops a tension and that doesn't feel good, then I think it would end up leading to the ill-will, or worry, and maybe doubt about the method of the practice. It is basically self-correcting.

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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 6:47 pm

mikenz66 wrote:hi 2pennyworth,
2pennyworth wrote: Ven V's emphasis on the specific link between the arsing of craving and the manifestation of physical and tangible tightness and tension in the head was a new one to me, but perhaps this is due to my lack of thorough knowledge of other's teachings?

Physical manifestations arising due to mental processes are discussed by just about everyone, as far as I can recall. Again, it may be just a matter of different ways of expressing such things, and they may not identify specific places...

:anjali:
Mike


Yeah agreed, and I thought I was practicing "relaxing" effectively in my practice prior to applying Ven V's specific instructions. Like I say, I thought it was "trite" - as in common knowledge and nothing new. But i personally discovered more layers to this relaxing, using this specific constant "relaxing" process applied every time my mind moved and attention got 'snagged' by something, layers which i was completely ignorant of prior to practicing Ven V's specific instructions. But it was maybe just me and my misapplication of other's instructions. I'd never seen for example, the very subtle way the forehead tightened, when attention/mind moved to something. I became very sensitive to any tightness in the head, and this tightness around the brain, which I had not been aware of previously - had totally overlooked and taken for granted, which had been constant (not so much talking about the more obvious tension that can arise in the head when obviously stressed for example), completely went as practice deepened. This was all news to me! I also think practicing brahma viharas / metta practice helped immensely.
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 08, 2014 6:51 pm

robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20624#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 7:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20624#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.


Is Ven Vimalaramsi specifically talking about Munindra-ji here?
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 08, 2014 7:17 pm

2pennyworth wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote: . . .
Dear Mike
looking at his background I find it hard to see how he can be seen as someone who as you said " appear to be a matter of not having a detailed knowledge of what the "others" actually teach".
For all the names dropped in the biography, if he really spent time with these teachers, he shows very little understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

For example:

"Other meditation's instructions have the meditators put their attention into the middle of the pain and try to see its true nature and watch its changes. But pain by nature, is repulsive and thus, the meditators have the tendency to tighten and harden mind so that they can continue watching the pain. The meditators will eventually develop enough concentration (fixed attention) to be able to overcome the pain. However, this is achieved by repressing and tightening mind." viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20624#p289026

If he had actually worked with Munindra-ji, heard what Munindra-ji had to say during retreat Dhamma talks, and what Munindra-ji would say in one-to-one instructions about dealing with pain and the cultivation of concentration and mindfulness, this quote represents a very poor and distorted understanding of the practice he is criticizing.

All these teachers with whom Vimalaramsi supposedly practiced and studied did not truly understand the Buddha's teachings, but Vimaaramsi, alone, got it right.


Is Ven Vimalaramsi specifically talking about Munindra-ji here?
This certainly seems to be a "characterization" of the sort of thing one might hear from a Mahasi Sayadaw style teacher, such as U Pandita and Munindra-ji.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby fraaJad » Thu May 08, 2014 9:01 pm

VinceField wrote:Thank you so much for sharing your experience! It has helped enhance my confidence and motivation in my own practices. I am surprised that you were able to attain such significant results with the seemingly little time you put in, but perhaps you invested more time than what I have understood from your post. Regardless, I want you to know that your post is greatly appreciated and helpful. Cheers! :clap:


:twothumbsup: Yes! So I can go home now? :)

Actually, I have probably spent a lot more time sitting than I may have led you to believe. It's just that I don't remember it as "work." Once you hit the jhanas, sitting is pretty much the most fun thing to do. When I started getting more serious (like hitting the arupa jhanas), I was taking breaks from work to go sit in my car in the parking lot, or in an empty conference room for a half hour.
To put numbers on it, I was sitting a half hour a day to start. Then an hour. Lately it's 90 minutes/day on average, but if I get the time, why not 2 hours? :-)

Anyway, please PM me or post here, like I said, with any questions. There's also a good Yahoo group led by BV and Sister Khema, where people ask questions about the practice, and other students help out.

Gotta go --
metta,
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 08, 2014 10:03 pm

Hi 2pennyworth,
2pennyworth wrote:Yeah agreed, and I thought I was practicing "relaxing" effectively in my practice prior to applying Ven V's specific instructions. Like I say, I thought it was "trite" - as in common knowledge and nothing new. But i personally discovered more layers to this relaxing, using this specific constant "relaxing" process applied every time my mind moved and attention got 'snagged' by something, layers which i was completely ignorant of prior to practicing Ven V's specific instructions. But it was maybe just me and my misapplication of other's instructions. ... .

No, I don't think it's "trite". Quite the opposite, in fact. As beeblebrox said above, dealing with the hindrances is a key issue:
beeblebrox wrote:The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.

Various teachers give various strategies. Some work better for some people than for others, so it can be useful to investigate a variety of approaches, since, as in your experience, you may find that a particular approach really helps.

:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Thu May 08, 2014 10:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:As beeblebrox said above, dealing with the hindrances is a key issue:
beeblebrox wrote:The point of these hindrances is that they interfere with the effectiveness of the practice.

If any one of them is present, then it is a part of practice to figure out what to do with it. I think that is a part of developing the insight.

Various teachers give various strategies. Some work better for some people than for others, so it can be useful to investigate a variety of approaches, since, as in your experience, you may find that a particular approach really helps.

:anjali:
Mike


I think we're all saying the same things here in this regard. :smile: As I stated previously, basically saying the same thing as beeblebrox:
2pennyworth wrote:For what it's worth, I think the pertinent issue here is beginning to see how the way one habitually greets the hindrances has an effect. If one has developed keen mindfulness and collectedness, and are thus able to recognize the hindrance when it arises, the next question is what is mind's usual reaction to it, and can one see that habitual response?


Trite, specifically referring to teaching instructions, but that word is not suitable, no. These teachings are profound.
:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 09, 2014 2:58 am

2pennyworth,

Even if Ven. V's argument is aligned with the facts, which we will never know, I still think suppression plays a central role in the Teaching. You and Ven. V may have a different idea of what suppression means than what I have in mind when I use the word. Perhaps it is a technical term in his teachings, the meaning of which you are privy to and I am not. To show you what I mean, here are some dictionary definitions of the word with some explanations as to how they relate to the Teachings.

1.
to put an end to the activities of (a person, body of persons, etc.): to suppress the Communist and certain left-leaning parties.

Part of the Path is to put an end to unwholesome activities; Nibbana is the end of greed, hate, and delusion; Nibbana is the end of the round of birth and death, the end of wandering; etc.

2.
to do away with by or as by authority; abolish; stop (a practice, custom, etc.).

One does away with one's old unwholesome ways of living and replaces them with wholesome ways. One suppresses their sensual desire for candy, for example. They are suppressing the experience that they would have had if they'd eaten the candy.

3.
to keep in or repress (a feeling, smile, groan, etc.).

Instead of bursting out in anger at someone when irritation arises, one tries to practice right speech. One is suppressing anger, suppressing the experience of anger.

4.
to withhold from disclosure or publication (truth, evidence, a book, names, etc.).

Same vein as 3.

5.
to stop or arrest (a flow, hemorrhage, cough, etc.).

Same vein as 2.

~~~

My point is that suppress essentially means "to end something by action". It doesn't carry negative connotations on its own. I wouldn't have taken any issue with the statement if the word "oppress" had been used instead of "suppress" because the former term clearly has negative connotations.

Forgive my semantic hand wrangling but I do hope I've made my point.

:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby 2pennyworth » Fri May 09, 2014 7:36 am

Mkoll wrote:My point is that suppress essentially means "to end something by action". It doesn't carry negative connotations on its own. I wouldn't have taken any issue with the statement if the word "oppress" had been used instead of "suppress" because the former term clearly has negative connotations.

Forgive my semantic hand wrangling but I do hope I've made my point.
:anjali:


It is more the negative connotations which the word 'suppress' carries, which I think is troublesome when applied to practice instructions. For me, and I believe most people, suppress means "push down" with force, as you initially pointed out here, quoting the sutta in question:

Mkoll wrote:But if "beat down, constrain, and crush" and that vivid simile don't qualify as suppression, I don't know what could.


Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own. The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it (neither affirmation nor negation). Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.

Or that's how I personally view the word 'supress', and why I find it unhelpful in practice terms.

:anjali:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 09, 2014 7:57 am

2pennyworth wrote:
Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own. The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it. Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.
Sounds like you are describing Burmese vipassana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 09, 2014 8:47 am

2pennyworth wrote:Also, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be suggesting that the only other alternative to suppression (as in, if anger arises) is to unleash it? As if to some how deny it and "keep it within" through containment, suggesting it has some power or form of it's own.

If anger has arisen, it's already been unleashed in the mind. At that point, you suppress it by not expressing it bodily or verbally. There are a variety of methods. If your method works for you really well, that's great: I'm truly happy for you. The Buddha taught a lot of different people who had differing personalities and aptitudes. So he taught a lot of different approaches and methods to the same problem. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

2pennyworth wrote:The argument I'm making is that instead of containing anger and suppressing it, one should see the initial manifestation of it arise, recognize it and see it as a impersonal, habitual cause and effect arising which is impermanent and transient; empty. Not to imbue it with 'substance' which needs suppressing in the first place, it'll soon loose it's "power". If something is transient and empty what needs suppressing? Suppressing, to me, implies some sort of continuation of it in some form and affirmation of it (neither affirmation nor negation). Seen this way, this 'anger' just dissipates as smoke does, it only has strength or power if given fuel.

I'd describe that as suppressing the anger with the perception of impermanence. Here's a crude analogy: A fireman suppresses the fire (the anger) with water (the perception of impermanence).

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree here. It's just debate over views, after all. In the end, if you're doing what works to develop wholesome states, that's what's important.

:namaste:
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby VinceField » Fri May 09, 2014 4:57 pm

If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release. It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment. One can stop the hinderance from arising for a period of time, but this does not mean that the underlying mechanisms driving the hinderance have ceased to exist. One can simply be burying the hinderance under newly acquired mental screens and subconscious programmings without truly ridding oneself from it.

Having switched from Vipassana meditation to Bhante's teachings, I have experienced (to an extent) the validity of this distinction.
Uhhh Something clever to give you the impression that I am the identity compulsively projected by my false illusory defiled ego?
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 09, 2014 5:57 pm

VinceField wrote:If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release. It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment. One can stop the hinderance from arising for a period of time, but this does not mean that the underlying mechanisms driving the hinderance have ceased to exist. One can simply be burying the hinderance under newly acquired mental screens and subconscious programmings without truly ridding oneself from it.

Having switched from Vipassana meditation to Bhante's teachings, I have experienced (to an extent) the validity of this distinction.
So, just to be clear here, you are saying that your above quote from Vimalasarmsi's book is a critique of vipassana meditation.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Key component missing? Does the wheel turn smoothly with

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 09, 2014 8:17 pm

VinceField wrote:If you read the quotes I posted from Bhante's book, you will clearly see that his use of the word suppression signifies a forced blockage of arising hinderances, rather than a mindful allowance followed by a mindful release.

Sorry, I don't see any difference there. I think you're saying the same thing in a softer and fancier way.

VinceField wrote:It is explained as more of a burying of the hindrance, rather than a proper dissemination via progressive mindful detachment.

Same thing.

~~~

I'll be blunt: I think, given the language that you're using, you are blending modern Western psychology, specifically the concept of psychological repression, with the Buddha's teachings from 2400 years ago.

To me, they're incompatible because their fundamental premises are different.

But, like I said, whatever works for you.
Peace,
James
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