Nibbana under the effect of ayahuasca

[manas]

Then you stand isolated.

The 5th precept clearly advises against it.

The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.

I'm not advocating anyone take it, just saying that the fifth precept does not appear to decisively advise against this particular plant.

Having said that, the Buddha does say that the only way to Nibbana is the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path, so any insights attained while taking ayahuasca ought not to be taken as suggesting one is now enlightened, from the Buddhist point of view in any case.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

The 5th precept doesn't decisively advise against ANY particular plant.

The 5th precept advises .....'to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness'.

Given that some people have experienced the delusion and mistaken impression that they have become enlightened, I would think this precept covers it pretty well.
The only exceptions, as far as I can ascertain, are taking drugs for medical reasons; drugs which have been administered and prescribed, or drugs which bring relief from pain and discomfort.
Other than that, the precept is not specific as to the substance; but it is specific with regard to the EFFECT.

(Oooh, sneaky!! You edited your post.... )

[Crazy cloud]

and where seeing some strange sights, that I still don't understand

Hello Crazy Cloud,

What kind of sights? If it's possible to explain

Hi, actually I guess it's a bit to weird, and possibly something one would ask a monastic ..

But in short:


hightened vision (been able to read without "binoculars", perfect eyesight - use glasses since i was 6 years of age)

automatic pinpointed vision (every morning after waking up - the first object i lay my eyes on, and the mind itself performed a instant and perfect adjustment in clearness, details, colors and so on - emtying the mind, stillness ..)

hightened memory (ability to memorize tree times normal amount)

"read minds" ..

cessation of self - (I could se my old self diappear, day by day - and I couldn't belive what was happening, so I tried several times to lure the demon out in the open, but it was gone, and the dream is over)

seeing 2bodies in every person in a random group of people


Just like to add, that this process lasted about 6 months, and was before I started reading and practicing the dhamma - I was in a state of emty awareness, that's it I think ..

Be happy

[walkart]

Hi, actually I guess it's a bit to weird, and possibly something one would ask a monastic ..

But in short:


hightened vision (been able to read without binoculars, perfect eyesight - use glasses since i was 6 years of age)

automatic pinpointed vision (every morning after waking up - the first object i lay my eyes on, and the mind itself performed a instant and perfect adjustment in clearness, details, colors and so on - emtying the mind, stillness ..)

hightened memory (ability to memorize tree times normal amount)

"read minds" ..

cessation of self - (I could se my old self diappear, day by day - and I couldn't belive what was happening, so I tried several times to lure the demon out in the open, but it was gone, and the dream is over)

seeing 2bodies in every person in a random group of people


Just like to add, that this process lasted about 6 months, and was before I started reading and practicing the dhamma - I was in a state of emty awareness, that's it I think ..

Be happy

Thank you for sharing, it's inresting!

[Mkoll]

The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.

It leads to you tripping balls and hallucinating things that aren't there. If you want to know about the crazy and harmful actions that this "clarity" leads to, just check out the Erowid experience vault; I recommend the Datura section if you want a horrifying glimpse at temporary insanity.

I'm not advocating anyone take it, just saying that the fifth precept does not appear to decisively advise against this particular plant.

Did you expect him to give a list of every psychoactive plant and substance? The spirit of the precept is clear, the lettering of rules always leaves room for interpretation.

~~~

Drugs are antithetical to Dhamma practice. Period. End of story.

[lyndon taylor]

A young british student recently went to south america and tried ayahuasca and died!! That should be warning enough.....

[seeker242]

The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.

It led to a person thinking they probably attained nibbana. To think one has attained nibbana just from drinking a psychedelic drink, to be fooled into such a wrong view, I think that qualifies as "heedless".

[Sam Vara]

On this topic, I like the stance taken by Ajahn Sucitto:

The methodologies for transcendence are varied: meditation,
prayer, devotion, yoga, fasting, even psychotropic drugs. In the
long run, the ones that are the most useful will be the ones that
can be integrated into daily life with the minimum amount of
dependence on external circumstances or internal ideology. Then
the method will be applicable to a wide range of people and it will
not become the source of more stressful mental activity. Such is
the spiritual alignment that the Buddha called ‘Dhamma'

http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 81&ref=vec

[philosopher]

On this topic, I like the stance taken by Ajahn Sucitto:

The methodologies for transcendence are varied: meditation,
prayer, devotion, yoga, fasting, even psychotropic drugs. In the
long run, the ones that are the most useful will be the ones that
can be integrated into daily life with the minimum amount of
dependence on external circumstances or internal ideology. Then
the method will be applicable to a wide range of people and it will
not become the source of more stressful mental activity. Such is
the spiritual alignment that the Buddha called ‘Dhamma'

http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 81&ref=vec

This has always been my perspective. There are various means; the best strategy is to choose the means that are the most sustainable in the long run and in every possible circumstance.

[Dhammarakkhito]

And it doesn't surprise me that someone who had a strong experience on Ayahuasca would have their faith in Buddhism forged or strengthened. The Three Marks and the Four Noble Truths are most evident in such violent, harrowing and transcendent moments. Even if the Ayahuasca experience isn't at all Buddhist, it can still serve to illustrate the ubiquity of impermanence, not-self and suffering. Seeing such truth first-hand would wake someone up to the knowledge that the core of Buddhism is not just cultural tradition, but brute fact.

i think this is what happened with me and acid. i had a clearly bad trip that made me think that i would die, and i vowed to become a better person; before that, i had suffered plenty but i felt there was usually some recourse. now i am more determined than ever
taking a drug thinking you will become enlightened when it is mind-altering is wrong

[Dhammarakkhito]

I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?

I would say they didn't actually attain nibbana.

perhaps you are right, but I did have a very useful experience.

i hd a moment of clarity that stretched into about a month, after using adderall, marijuana and alcohol bountifully. there was a *pop*, i woke up and i shuddered at how i was perceiving the world. it felt i had access to information i hadn't had before, and i was able to interact more seamlessly with others. i'm at the point now where i don't think it was a delusion (because i'm drug-free, converted to buddhism, etc.), but the point is it wasn't sustainable. then when that state of mind wore off and i took in more stress, i had a very long period of self-harm from drug use and i physically wrecked my own body
that energy has to come from somewhere, so if you didn't product that state of mind wholesomely it won't be wholesome. there is only one path to the end of suffering and it what the buddha said

[CedarTree]

And that person is still in Nibbana out of its influence?

Was it even nibbana is my question lol

[ieee23]

I just want to raise the topic on ayahuasca, I know a person that has attained nibbana under its influence, maybe it would be a good discussion of on the 5th precept. What would you say about it?

My apologies if I sound skeptical. Ancient India must have had many psychotropic drugs. If such things provided a reliable and safe short cut to those drugs would have been put to regular usage thousands of years ago.


I can't name citations, but I've been reading suttas lately where the Buddha states that such a person is free of desire, ill will, and delusion. The big test as far as your friend goes is if he stays like that over the months, years.

[Caodemarte]

The fifth precept forbids "strong drinks (& Intoxicants?) that lead to heedlessness". So it isn't that simple, because in this particular case (and so I've read, for quite a few other folks also), the plant ayahuasca did not lead to heedlessness, but rather to a sense of clarity and conviction.

It led to a person thinking they probably attained nibbana. To think one has attained nibbana just from drinking a psychedelic drink, to be fooled into such a wrong view, I think that qualifies as "heedless".

[erikkaplun]

I second Viscid.

I would add from my own experience that, especially for a person studying the Dhamma (or simply someone with a love for truth and intuition for Dhamma), Ayahuasca will lead to stream entry. i.e. a person faithfully and diligently parttaking ceremonies will eventually realize the dhamma eye and attain liberation.

the hallucinations and visions and suffering and torment is all due to intermediate stages. ayahuasca is a stress release agent (truth serum). due to strong clinging, the intermediate effects are produced. eventually, the final outcome will be complete dropping of stress and complete sobering. i.e. ayahuasca is a sobering agent. but our fears and attachments are so strong, it probably won’t work the first time, nor 2nd, at least not for all individuals.

also, the process must be self-driven. one shouldn’t view ayahuasca as a sedating drug. the person taking it must learn to faithfully and diligently drive the process. this learning is sufficiently analogous to being a monk for years.

ayahuasca is like a kamma-dhamma hyperdrive, a catalyst.

I really don’t care who believes this and who calls it BS.
the Buddha did not argue with the world. (and just because you’re a buddhist or an ordinated monk, doesn’t mean you’re not thinking like a worldling

And it doesn't surprise me that someone who had a strong experience on Ayahuasca would have their faith in Buddhism forged or strengthened. The Three Marks and the Four Noble Truths are most evident in such violent, harrowing and transcendent moments. Even if the Ayahuasca experience isn't at all Buddhist, it can still serve to illustrate the ubiquity of impermanence, not-self and suffering. Seeing such truth first-hand would wake someone up to the knowledge that the core of Buddhism is not just cultural tradition, but brute fact.