Giving up....

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Spiny Norman »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Since you are a therapist, you know that a behaviour is not learned if it repeatedly has negative reinforcements. Therefore, making mediation pleasant, is the smart thing to do. That's a more concrete reason why you should consider trying to practice metta. Since metta is very pleasant, the positive reinforcement is frequently there.
Possibly, though if somebody has become totally fed up and disillusioned with meditation, then a change of practice is unlikely to work.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Spiny Norman »

robertk wrote:Do you prefer pleasant or painful feelings.
But if meditation has become a continual and unpleasant struggle, then where is the motivation to continue?
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Myotai
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Myotai »

robertk wrote:Do you prefer pleasant or painful feelings. Do you think some states are better than others?
If so you misunderstand the path of the Buddhas imho.

It is all about right view. If there is an inkling of the truth that there is no self, no manager, then it is very hard to feel despondent. even thinking about " my practice" is already heading wrong. There are simply elements that arise and cease with no more control than of the stars in the sky.imho.
My understanding of Buddhism in a nutshell is that he taught Suffering and the end of Suffering. Not a perfected indifference to suffering.

I appreciate the difference in pleasant and unpleasant - but I also understanding when I am banging my head against a brick wall and getting nowhere -pleae don't get all Zen on me and talk about the goalessness of it all - we ALL have goals no matter how you dress it.

If the car doesn't start do you just sit there or do something about it - the latter I presume.

:anjali:
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Myotai
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Myotai »

Spiny Norman wrote:
robertk wrote:Do you prefer pleasant or painful feelings.
But if meditation has become a continual and unpleasant struggle, then where is the motivation to continue?

Exactly!
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Myotai
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Myotai »

Sanjay PS wrote:Hi ,

Please do read these few pages titled " Healing the Healer " , its penned by Dr. Paul Fleischman , and has a perspective from a therapists point of view .

http://www.vridhamma.org/The-Experience ... ipassana#1


Am sure every one bounces back sooner or later :smile:

sanjay
That link is on my Kindle to read later - thanks!
Spiny Norman
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Spiny Norman »

Myotai wrote: If the car doesn't start do you just sit there or do something about it - the latter I presume.
If the car continually refused to start I'd think about buying a new one, or getting rid of it and taking the bus for a while. ;)
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Myotai
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Myotai »

Anagarika wrote:One of the hallmarks of Theravada practice in the west can be a sense of isolation. Soto Zen has done a better job of building communities, zendos, and groups that gather to sit and stare at walls (sorry, couldn't help myself :tongue: Humor intended ). I feel that this sense of community, of having people and teachers to help you along the way, can be very beneficial. My sense of your first post, Myotai, is that you are awaking to meditate on your own, in the quiet of your home. This kind of segregated practice really does take resiliency, and for many the isolation does start to get to them. I myself have had to balance the seclusion that I need with the social contacts in this practice that I also need.

I don;t know where you reside, but perhaps there is a Theravada community within your locale, or at least not too far way. Perhaps sitting with a group, and having access to a teacher(s) or monks/nuns could be very helpful, and make the experience of sitting not so isolated, and not so deadly quiet that every noise or thought in your mind is like a red flag waving.

Don't give up....give in. Give in to the idea that you need some support for your practice. Even the monks of the First Sangha had each other, and the Buddha implored them to care for one another and to look out for each other. Here in the Theravada west, we don't have that, usually.
Thanks for the support, it helps!

I have spent months, every morning feeling utterly stuck. Locked and enclosed, a real state of attrition!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Giving up....

Post by tiltbillings »

Myotai wrote: ...
Probably the best thing to do right now is put it all on the back burner. Don't worry about it and don't beat yourself over it. Give yourself some time away from the practice. And do something that you like to do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Since you are a therapist, you know that a behaviour is not learned if it repeatedly has negative reinforcements. Therefore, making mediation pleasant, is the smart thing to do. That's a more concrete reason why you should consider trying to practice metta. Since metta is very pleasant, the positive reinforcement is frequently there.
Possibly, though if somebody has become totally fed up and disillusioned with meditation, then a change of practice is unlikely to work.
That's true, I guess. In that case, it's best to take a break and then return to practice, but with a new object, like metta.


Robert: I think that what you're saying is like starting at the end, almost. We don't have the possibility of starting at not having any preference between pleasantness and unpleasantness. That would be like jumping directly to the end. That knowledge only comes through full understanding, not through belief.

For example, having the view that good actions have good results, and vice versa, is right view. But I will only fully know it works this way once I know this through direct knowledge. So right view has a lot more to do with belief, in the begining of the path. Since there is no mature understanding, we have to motivate our minds into developing this understanding by giving the mind wholesome pleasantness. It is midway between mundane and enlightened.

Needless to say, this is just my reasoned opinion.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Dan74
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Dan74 »

Some great advice above I think. I'd reiterate giving yourself some loving-kindness and allowing a break in sits.

When sitting, it can be good to turn your attention to your attitude. Are you expecting something? Are you impatient? Trying too hard?

Sometimes it can be good to foster a wholesome gentle attitude, like holding a newborn chick carefully cupped in your hands. Gentling holding, gently observing, patiently, lovingly.

We all go through times when sits don't seem to go anywhere. That's OK. I think Robert is spot on in the sense that it's very useful to develop an equanimity to what arises and not only want certain kinds of sits. Bad sits can also be good sits.

All the best!
_/|\_
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robertk
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Re: Giving up....

Post by robertk »

Myotai wrote: I appreciate the difference in pleasant and unpleasant - but I also understanding when I am banging my head against a brick wall and getting nowhere -pleae don't get all Zen on me and talk about the goalessness of it all - we ALL have goals no matter how you dress it.

If the car doesn't start do you just sit there or do something about it - the latter I presume.

:anjali:
Nothing Zen about it as far as I know.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/understanding%20reality.html
We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the eight worldly conditions which obsess the world. He spoke with regard to those who have not attained enlightenment as follows:

... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. [..] They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such folk are not free from ill.


We then read that for the "ariyan disciple," who has attained enlightenment, the opposite is the case. We may wonder what the secret is of the ariyan disciple. He sees things as they really are and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions. Could we also become an ariyan disciple? At this moment we are still "unlearned, common, average folk." From the Buddha's teachings we learn that seeing realities as they are can make us less enslaved to the worldly conditions. Seeing things as they are, that is true wisdom
For me I don't see the difference between sitting down and standing up - but I think this is not a popular view on this forum. If you don't like the feelings while standing the way is not to then sit and try to have better ones but to understand them right there and then as they arise.
Or if you are sitting and the mind is not as you wish it then right then you can see wrong view arising: which thinks mind is something that lasts and belongs to someone who can make it better. That is the beginning of understanding.

Thanks Dan for nice words.
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martinfrank
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Re: Giving up....

Post by martinfrank »

Dear Myotai

Two small thoughts:

1. What are you eating? Are you eating meat and spicy food? Onions, garlic, leek? Are you smoking? Drinking long coffee (American coffee)? All this can make the mind difficult to control. Do you take some medications which dumb the mind like some antidepressants, heart medications...?

2. How about your life outside of meditation? Do you watch news, violent or thriller movies which leave you upset? Are you struggling with fear, anger and hate? Are you indulging in uncontrolled Internet surfing, video games?

My advice is to do a small home retreat where you eat only harmless food (milk, honey, nuts, grains, fruits - no meat, fish, eggs, spices, coffee, tea, smoking, sparkling water) or even fasting and do yoga and QiGong to get in control of your body plus short periods of soft sitting and walking meditation. No news, no TV, no Internet, no computer. Reading Majjhima and Diga Nikaya, sleeping early, getting up early, and use a mantra to keep the mind from free-associating thoughts.

Writing lists of what worries you, what you want/have to do, want to remember... can also help to clear the mind. While you meditate, interrupt whenever something "to remember" comes up, and write it down, then go on meditating.

Maybe also unclutter your space... if applicable... but I fear you are already living like a Zen monk.

I found a few days in a tent in the mountains without contact with the civilized world an easy and effective way of getting back in charge of myself.

May you and all beings be happy!

Martin
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
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Zom
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Zom »

Forget meditation. Practise other important things.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Spiny Norman »

Myotai wrote: Thanks for the support, it helps!
Do let us know how you get on.
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Anagarika
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Re: Giving up....

Post by Anagarika »

A bit more on the importance of connecting with others in the practice:

§ 17. {Iti 1.17; Iti 10} (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to external factors, I don't envision any other single factor like admirable friendship[1] as doing so much for a monk in training, who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage. A monk who is a friend with admirable people abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful."

A monk with admirable people as friends — who's reverential, respectful, doing what his friends advise — mindful, alert, attains step by step the ending of all fetters.

Note
1.
In SN 45.2 the Buddha says, "Admirable friendship... is actually the whole of the holy life... It is in dependence on me as an admirable friend that beings subject to birth have gained release from birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair." As AN 8.54 points out, admirable friendship means not only associating with good people, but also learning from them and emulating their good qualities.
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