Cittaviveka

[Mr Man]

I don't believe Ajahn Sumedho, in the teaching you have linked to, is teaching this as a conduit to Jhana. And I don't believe that Ajahn Sumedho would consider Jhana to be a pre-requirement for insight.

[Myotai]

The practice seems to have similarities to the Zen practice of Shikantaza, are you familiar with this?

Can calmness and serenity reveal the nature of the mind and the impermanence of phenomena? Does this happen 'naturally' as a result of tranquility?

[Mr Man]

The practice seems to have similarities to the Zen practice of Shikantaza, are you familiar with this?

I'm not familiar with Shikantaza.

Can calmness and serenity reveal the nature of the mind and the impermanence of phenomena? Does this happen 'naturally' as a result of tranquility?

Not sure how to answer that. I think maybe we are expecting "insight" to be an event rather than a just a deepening of understanding/faith.

[paul]

Can calmness and serenity reveal the nature of the mind and the impermanence of phenomena? Does this happen 'naturally' as a result of tranquility?

No, it doesn't happen naturally, that's why the Eightfold Path has the threefold division into the elements of Morality, Concentration and Insight (Understanding). Morality does not happen 'naturally' it requires effort and it's the same with insight, it requires not just 'letting go', but actively cultivating an understanding that objects are impermanent in the sense that what one sees is only a stage in the process of birth, growth, maturity, decline and death. For example this computer or person is at a certain stage in its life-cycle and the mind clings to things as they appear right now, but in fact they are on a path of decline toward death. Penetration of the truth of impermanence requires constantly impressing this reality on the mind, with whatever degree of concentration one can muster, but even normal thought is profitable, because it is a different vision than the conventional truth on which ordinary life is based (and which is true at its own level) and mental resistance is involved.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh031-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Follow the link and find Chapter 1, 'The Exposition of Insight' and go to the section "The Two Stages (bhumi)", which explains the conventional truth which is seen at first view and the ultimate truth which is understood after the development of insight into impermanence.

[Aloka]

I wonder if this will be of any help, Myotai. Ajahn Sumedho's teacher Ajahn Chah mentions letting go in his meditation instruction from "A gift of Dhamma"

Excerpt:

The method of training the mind which I will give you today is kammatthāna. ''Kamma'' means ''action'' and ''thāna'' means ''base''. In Buddhism it is the method of making the mind peaceful and tranquil. It's for you to use in training the mind and with the trained mind investigate the body.

Our being is composed of two parts: one is the body, the other, the mind. There are only these two parts. What is called ''the body'', is that which can be seen with our physical eyes. ''The mind'', on the other hand, has no physical aspect. The mind can only be seen with the ''internal eye'' or the ''eye of the mind''. These two things, body and mind, are in a constant state of turmoil.

What is the mind? The mind isn't really any ''thing''. Conventionally speaking, it's that which feels or senses. That which senses, receives and experiences all mental impressions is called ''mind''. Right at this moment there is mind. As I am speaking to you, the mind acknowledges what I am saying. Sounds enter through the ear and you know what is being said. That which experiences this is called ''mind''.

This mind doesn't have any self or substance. It doesn't have any form. It just experiences mental activities, that's all! If we teach this mind to have right view, this mind won't have any problems. It will be at ease.

The mind is mind. Mental objects are mental objects. Mental objects are not the mind, the mind is not mental objects. In order to clearly understand our minds and the mental objects in our minds, we say that the mind is that which receives the mental objects which pop into it.

When these two things, mind and its object, come into contact with each other, they give rise to feelings. Some are good, some bad, some cold, some hot, all kinds! Without wisdom to deal with these feelings, however, the mind will be troubled.

Meditation is the way of developing the mind so that it may be a base for the arising of wisdom. Here the breath is a physical foundation. We call it ānāpānasati or ''mindfulness of breathing''. Here we make breathing our mental object. We take this object of meditation because it's the simplest and because it has been the heart of meditation since ancient times.

When a good occasion arises to do sitting meditation, sit cross-legged: right leg on top of the left leg, right hand on top of the left hand. Keep your back straight and erect. Say to yourself, ''Now I will let go of all my burdens and concerns''. You don't want anything that will cause you worry. Let go of all concerns for the time being.

Now fix your attention on the breath. Then breathe in and breathe out. In developing awareness of breathing, don't intentionally make the breath long or short. Neither make it strong or weak. Just let it flow normally and naturally. Mindfulness and self-awareness, arising from the mind, will know the in-breath and the out-breath.

CONTINUED at the link below:

http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Gift_Dhamma1.php

[Myotai]

That's helpful, thanks....

[paul]

Can calmness and serenity reveal the nature of the mind and the impermanence of phenomena? Does this happen 'naturally' as a result of tranquility?

"The goal of the Buddhist path, complete and permanent liberation from suffering, is to be achieved by practicing the full threefold discipline of morality (sila), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (pañña). The mundane jhanas, comprising the four fine-material jhanas and the four immaterial jhanas, pertain to the stage of concentration, which they fulfill to an eminent degree. However, taken by themselves, these states do not ensure complete deliverance, for they are incapable of cutting off the roots of suffering. The Buddha teaches that the cause of suffering, the driving power behind the cycle of rebirths, is the defilements with their three unwholesome roots — greed, hatred and delusion. Concentration of the absorption level, no matter to what heights it is pursued, only suppresses the defilements, but cannot destroy their latent seeds. Thence bare mundane jhana, even when sustained, cannot by itself terminate the cycle of rebirths. To the contrary, it may even perpetuate the round. For if any fine-material or immaterial jhana is held to with clinging, it will bring about a rebirth in that particular plane of existence corresponding to its own kammic potency, which can then be followed by rebirth in some lower realm."

"What is required to achieve complete deliverance from the cycle of rebirths is the eradication of the defilements. Since the most basic defilement is ignorance (avijja), the key to liberation lies in developing its direct opposite, namely wisdom (pañña)."


"The wisdom instrumental in attaining liberation is divided into two principal types: insight knowledge (vipassanañana) and the knowledge pertaining to the supramundane paths (maggañana). The first is the direct penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena — impermanence, suffering and non-self."

Extracts from "The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation", Bhante H. Gunaratana.

[Aloka]

/Can calmness and serenity reveal the nature of the mind and the impermanence of phenomena? Does this happen 'naturally' as a result of tranquility?

Hi Myotai,

In general, we can already see the impermanence of phenomena by looking around us at the changing seasons, how our bodies, or the environment, have changed over time and so on.

As far as questions and advice about meditation are concerned, I'd recommend reading "Finding the Missing Peace" by Ajahn Amaro. (He became abbot of Amaravati monastery when Ajahn Sumedho retired)

[url]tps://www.abhayagiri.org/books/finding-the-missing-peace[/url]

alternative link:

http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 13&ref=deb

[Alex123]

No, this sounds like the 'passive mindfulness' which avoids the function of Right Effort in removing the unwholesome and cultivating the wholesome;

What? Meditation "letting go of everything" is effort intensive. You have to remember to keep letting go (of tanha) every moment, and letting go in that way does fulfill 4 right exertions.

[paul]

Although the rudimentary technique of 'letting go' would involve concentration and in that simple sense it is 'effort', it could not fulfill the active and directed strategies of Right Effort (padhana), which extend to long-term methods, namely:

padhána: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states.

"The monk rouses his will to avoid the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to overcome them ... to develop wholesome things not yet arisen ... to maintain them, and not to let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up his energy, exerts his mind and strives" (A. IV, 13).

(1) "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. This is called the effort to avoid.

(2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome.

(3) "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), energy (viriya), rapture (píti), tranquillity (passaddhi), concentraton (samádhi), equanimity (upekkhá). This is called the effort to develop.

(4) "What now is the effort to maintain? The monk keeps firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as the mental image of a skeleton, a corpse infested by worms, a corpse blueblack in colour, a festering corpse, a corpse riddled with holes, a corpse swollen up. This is called the effort to maintain" (A. IV, 14).


-Buddhist Dictionary.

The Second Noble Truth is "clinging" and the antidote to clinging is letting go, but the Fourth Noble Truth is not simply "letting go", it's the Eightfold Path; practising the Eightfold Path is the way to let go. The hindrances are forms of attachment and eliminating the grip of the hindrances involves implementing the threefold strategy of morality, concentration and understanding.

[Alex123]

Although the rudimentary technique of 'letting go' would involve concentration and in that simple sense it is 'effort', it could not fulfill the active and directed strategies of Right Effort (padhana), which extend to long-term methods, namely:.

One would have to have lots of effort to maintain mindfulness and alertness,
1) one would need effort to prevent unwholesome qualities from arising,
2) one would also have to have effort to let go of arisen unwholesome qualities,
3) by letting go off unwholesome qualities one develops positive qualities, and then
4) one maintains positive mental qualities which again requires effort.

[badscooter]

No, this sounds like the 'passive mindfulness' which avoids the function of Right Effort in removing the unwholesome and cultivating the wholesome; without the work of Right Effort there is no vehicle and no progress can be made. Thanissaro Bikkhu addresses this in the book "Right Mindfulness", see chapter 4, ' The Burden of Bare Attention': it says:

"One of the most striking features of mindfulness as taught in the modern world is how far it differs from the Canon's teachings on right mindfulness. Instead of being a function of memory, it's depicted primarily- in some cases purely- as a function of attention to the present moment. Instead of being purposeful, it is without agenda. Instead of making choices, it is choiceless and without preferences".

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ulness.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you think mindfulness and meditation are the same thing? Are you suggesting the buddha taught that sati and meditation were the same thing?
If I'm defining a meditation practice, I certainly am not defining sati.
I will say, however, that sati is a part of meditation. It's the keeping something in mind part. It's the remembering part..
I might have missed the section where Ajahn sumedo defined sati as "letting go"... If I have I appologize and ask to be directed to the appropriate passage.

[paul]

Mindfulness, as you correctly indicate, is responsible for tethering the mind to the meditation subject as it attempts to penetrate the truth of impermanence; As mindfulness continually returns the mind to the subject, concentration develops and the disciple experiences a heightened sense of the specific characteristics of the subject, such as colour shape etc.; this is connected to the learning sign. This process involves the operation of the five Jhana Factors, particularly applied and sustained thought:

1. Bringing the mind to the object (arousing, applying)
2. Keeping the mind with the object (sustaining, stretching)
3. Finding, having interest in the object (joy)
4. Being happy and content with the object (happiness)
5. Unifying the mind with the object (fixing).

"Vicara" is ‘sustained thinking’ on the meditation theme. Its direct function is to take over after vitakka has lifted consciousness to the meditation theme. At that point, vicara will then be responsible for taking care of the mind and making sure that it stays in that state of meditation. If vitakka does not perform its function first, then vicara can do nothing. Or, if vitakka has successfully lifted consciousness to the meditation theme but vicara does not perform its duty, then the mind will fall into the passive state (bhavanga).

Therefore, these two are complementary to each other, with vitakka lifting consciousness to the state of meditation and vicara maintaining consciousness at that level. They can be compared with the following similes:

(A) The ringing of a bell. Vitakka is the first moment of the mind achieving focus on the theme, like the striking of a bell. Vicara is the subsequent continuance of consciousness on the meditation object, much like the reverberation of the bell.

(B) The flying of a big bird. Vitakka is like the flapping of the wings of a big bird, lifting itself up from the ground into the air, whereas vicara is like the subtle adjustments of the bird’s wings as it soars through the air, maintaining flight without the violent flapping of its wings.

(C) The flying of a plane. Vitakka is like a plane taking off from a runway, which requires much fuel and energy. Whereas vicara is like the flight of the plane high in the sky, which requires less fuel and energy to sustain flight.

So Vicara is more refined and subtle than Vitakka since it must nurture the mind and prevent it from falling from the state of meditation.

Mindfulness continues all through the jhana factors ensuring the mind does not become attached to joy etc.


One can either stay at this stage and develop concentration, or proceed to penetrate the general characteristic of the subject, impermanence. As one breaks through the specific characteristics however, one encounters the accretion of clinging which is expressed as mental resistance and emotion. With regular practice, the mental path to the perception of impermanence becomes progressively facilitated.

Returning to mindfulness:

Extract from "Mindfulness in Plain English", Bhante Gunaratana:-
"Mindfulness is a broader and larger function than concentration. it is an all-encompassing
function. Concentration is exclusive. It settles down on one item and ignores everything
else. Mindfulness is inclusive. It stands back from the focus of attention and watches with
a broad focus, quick to notice any change that occurs. If you have focused the mind on a
stone, concentration will see only the stone. Mindfulness stands back from this process,
aware of the stone, aware of the concentration focusing on the stone, aware of the
intensity of that focus and instantly aware of the shift of attention when concentration is
distracted. It is mindfulness which notices the distraction which has occurred, and it is
mindfulness which redirects the attention to the stone. Mindfulness is more difficult to
cultivate than concentration because it is a deeper-reaching function. Concentration is
merely focusing of the mind, rather like a laser beam. But it does not understand what it sees.
Mindfulness can examine the mechanics of selfishness and understand what it sees.
Mindfulness can pierce the mystery of suffering (impermanence) and the mechanism of discomfort.
Mindfulness can make you free." (by directing the other factors)

[Aloka]

.

For some very useful information which is relevant to this thread, I recommend reading these two booklets by Ajahn Sumedho : "Intuitive Awareness": (including the introduction by Ajahn Amaro)

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/intui ... reness.pdf

- and "Mindfulness - The Path to the Deathless":

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/deathless.pdf

[Myotai]

Thanks for the replies people....really helpful!