Buddho

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Buddho

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:23 am

Greetings JC,

jcsuperstar wrote:we should talk more about buddho... has anyone ever heard of it beening taught outside the thai forest tradition?

Or its origins in general... is it an invention of the Thai Forest tradition, or does it have roots elsewhere?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Buddho

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:29 am

the furthest i can trace it back is ajaan Sao who taught it to ajaan Mun though i've never seen anywhere where it said it was an invention of Ajaan Sao and since they were the birth of the Dhammayut line of the Thai forest tradition their mahanikai predecessors just kinda get left out of the story. a good clue would be did ajahn Chah learn Buddho from ajaan Mun or did he learn it from his main teacher (who's name i can't recall, but was praised by Ajaan Mun) since that would mean it didn't come from ajaan Sao. thats all i have right now
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddho

Postby cooran » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:38 am

Hello JC,

It comes from The Buddhanussati Gatha which many of us recite every week at our monasteries.

Iti pi so bhagavā arahaṃ sammāsaṃbuddho
vijjācaraṇasaṃpanno sugato lokavidū
anuttarapurisadammasārathī
satthā devamanussānaṃ buddho bhagavā ti.

It comes from sutta sources such as MN 12 Maha-sihanada Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar
5. "Sariputta, this misguided man Sunakkhatta will never infer of me according to Dhamma: 'That Blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

The Ninefold Interpretation:

“Thus indeed is the Exalted One (1) an accomplished one, (2) a fully-enlightened one, (3) endowed with knowledge and good conduct, (4) well gone or gone to bliss, (5) a knower of the world, (6) an unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, (7) a teacher of humans and devas, (8) the awakened or the one who knows, (9) the sublime or exalted.”

1. Arahat
2. Sammasambuddha
3. Vijjacaranasampanna
4. Sugata
5. Lokavidu
6. AnuttaraPurisadammasarathi
7. Satha Devamanussanam
8. Buddha
9. Bhagava

with metta
Chris
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Re: Buddho

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:51 am

Greetings Cooran,

That's true of the actual word, but is it also true of "buddho" as an object of meditation, a support for meditation, or (dare I say it) a "meditation technique"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Buddho

Postby cooran » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:13 am

Hello retrofuturist,

Yes, that is the way it is taught, as an initial object of concentration ~ eventually to be set aside when no longer needed.

Similarly to how the Anapanasati Sutta doesn't actually mention the nose-tip or abdomen as the points at which to watch the breath - but those are some of the ways it has been taught through-out the buddhist world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

There is no formulae set in concrete for meditation ~ whatever assists Right Concentration.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Buddho

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:20 am

Greetings Cooran,

I agree with what you say here - it's certainly a case of function over form. As someone said in a similar topic a few months ago, if someone could use the word 'Coca Cola' and achieve the same outcome, it would be equally as useful.

I suppose my query was regarding how/when the term "buddho" itself came to be used "as an initial object of concentration". I suppose it's not all that important in the scheme of things, since as you allude to, it's simply a means to concentration, but within the bounds of the Thai Forest tradition it seems to have become a reasonably mainstream object of meditation in its own right, and the history of the use of the word as a path to concentration interests me.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Buddho

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:
I suppose my query was regarding how/when the term "buddho" itself came to be used "as an initial object of concentration". I suppose it's not all that important in the scheme of things, since as you allude to, it's simply a means to concentration, but within the bounds of the Thai Forest tradition it seems to have become a reasonably mainstream object of meditation in its own right, and the history of the use of the word as a path to concentration interests me.)


and me as well, but as i've shown there seems to be a dead end in my search, unless you can pick it up in sri lanka as a practice i think that is as far back as youre going to get from thai sorces, my thai reading abilities are still nil at this point (get back at me in a few months as i am studying), so i cant dig into anything other than english translations, i have however found cool books on kasinas and other subjects in thai, but not buddho... this problem though is slightly political(?) as the mahanikai monks mostly serviced the poorer populations and had no royal or noble support from bangkok so there was no one to publish books by them or stories about them, so they are lost to history...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddho

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:16 am

Hmm, interesting question. Many of the specific little mediation techniques, like counting breaths as a way of getting some focus when starting anapanasati, or beginning metta meditation by extending it to yourself, have obviously been around for a long time, since they are mentioned in the Visuddhimagga and presumably the older commentaries that it is based upon, so may well have been around since the time of the Buddha, or shortly after.

As Chris says, there is not a lot of detail on technique in the Suttas themselves. In fact, we have Suttas suggesting that a monk seek out a friend or teacher for the specifics:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
AN 4.94 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight)
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.

The use of Buddho may well be quite ancient, but perhaps not written down in commentaries accessible in English. Perhaps JC will turn up something eventually...

Mike
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Re: Buddho

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:29 am

I have been practicing samatha meditation on the sound of Buddho for 5 years. It is a system from my Birmese teacher in Thailand. In his system this is not an addition to anapanasati or anything, it is a meditation on its own. You can use it from beginning to end, no switching of meditation object is needed! Increasing concentration, surpressing hindrances and finally path and fruition. In this system wisdom comes automatically with the concentration. As far as I have understood there is a difference between the word Buddho and other words (I guess just as there is a difference between the different colored kasinas). In Birma and Thailand there are many monks practicing this system.

Metta,

Wouter

PS:
Practicing this system without a teacher who has firm personal experience with this method is very very difficult, if not impossible... There are many places you can get stuck!
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Re: Buddho

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:40 am

Greetings,

wouter_doorn wrote:In this system wisdom comes automatically with the concentration.

How does 'buddho' then differ from something like the Hindu 'OM' which doesn't lead to "path and fruition"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Buddho

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:12 am

wouter_doorn wrote:I have been practicing samatha meditation on the sound of Buddho for 5 years. It is a system from my Birmese teacher in Thailand. In his system this is not an addition to anapanasati or anything, it is a meditation on its own. You can use it from beginning to end, no switching of meditation object is needed! Increasing concentration, surpressing hindrances and finally path and fruition. In this system wisdom comes automatically with the concentration. As far as I have understood there is a difference between the word Buddho and other words (I guess just as there is a difference between the different colored kasinas). In Birma and Thailand there are many monks practicing this system.

Metta,

Wouter

PS:
Practicing this system without a teacher who has firm personal experience with this method is very very difficult, if not impossible... There are many places you can get stuck!

is there anywhere i can get any information on this style of practice? or teachers names?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddho

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:25 am

and you said sound, so you recite it out loud?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Buddho

Postby PeterB » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Cooran,

I agree with what you say here - it's certainly a case of function over form. As someone said in a similar topic a few months ago, if someone could use the word 'Coca Cola' and achieve the same outcome, it would be equally as useful.

I suppose my query was regarding how/when the term "buddho" itself came to be used "as an initial object of concentration". I suppose it's not all that important in the scheme of things, since as you allude to, it's simply a means to concentration, but within the bounds of the Thai Forest tradition it seems to have become a reasonably mainstream object of meditation in its own right, and the history of the use of the word as a path to concentration interests me.

Metta,
Retro. :)

I think 'twas I Retro. In a slightly different context though if I remember correctly. Then it was a discussion about actual mantras as seen by various " Hindu " groups and by the Vajrayana. According to those groups the mantram has an actual objective effect because it contains a "seed sylable " which "not different from that which it represents "...cough.
There is no suggestion of anything analogous to that in the use of Buddho. It simply represents a audible alternative as an object. Some meditators respond well to the audible.
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Re: Buddho

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

wouter_doorn wrote:In this system wisdom comes automatically with the concentration.

How does 'buddho' then differ from something like the Hindu 'OM' which doesn't lead to "path and fruition"?

Metta,
Retro. :)


I cannot give any deep meaning or anything like that out of personal experience :), I do find that repeating this word has a very nice cadance and also gives a lot of frequenties which aid concentration (I can ask my teacher here in the netherlands who has far more experience then me to comment). Off course I have heard that it has a special connection to wisdom (path and fruit)... And if your meditation teacher in whom (out of personal experience) you have total confidence tells you that it is this word and not the word "OM" and tat it definately makes a difference then who am I to question that?

So, I think the only way you can trust a meditation system is by doing it and experiencing the effect. I cannot say that I know why Buddho, but I definitly experience the effect ;).
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Re: Buddho

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:06 pm

PeterB wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Cooran,
It simply represents a audible alternative as an object.



as far as I understand this is not entirely true. There is a reason for the specific word Buddho and its effect. Then again, I cannot show you a single book as proof, only what my meditation teachers say. Apparently it makes a connection to a certain kind of wisdom, it has the goal of path and fruit (not jhana). If it was only sound then any word could be tought, but this is not the case.

When I asked my teacher in Thailand about different pronounciations of Buddho (he pronounces it differently from the written version) he said (in his very simple and to the point english):
"this one same, not same. Like computer. Some computer one. Some computer one hundred. Some computer one thousand. Some computer one million. All computer, but not same computer. Buddho same. This one (his system) very good." (it's more the way in which he says it, but this just to point out that at least in the system of meditation I practice the word is very specific).
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Re: Buddho

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:09 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:and you said sound, so you recite it out loud?


Yes. I repeat it out loud. Then I concentrate on the sound.
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Re: Buddho

Postby Hoo » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:28 pm

If you have "Food for the Heart the collected teachings of Ajahn Chah" (Foreword by Kornfield and intro by Ajahn Amaro), the index has a few entries for Buddho. One indicates another word can be used if desired. I won't try to interpret what else is said. My other books on Chah aren't indexed and it's been too long since I read them to remember if it's mentioned or not.
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Re: Buddho

Postby PeterB » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:36 pm

wouter_doorn wrote:
PeterB wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Cooran,
It simply represents a audible alternative as an object.



as far as I understand this is not entirely true. There is a reason for the specific word Buddho and its effect. Then again, I cannot show you a single book as proof, only what my meditation teachers say. Apparently it makes a connection to a certain kind of wisdom, it has the goal of path and fruit (not jhana). If it was only sound then any word could be tought, but this is not the case.

When I asked my teacher in Thailand about different pronounciations of Buddho (he pronounces it differently from the written version) he said (in his very simple and to the point english):
"this one same, not same. Like computer. Some computer one. Some computer one hundred. Some computer one thousand. Some computer one million. All computer, but not same computer. Buddho same. This one (his system) very good." (it's more the way in which he says it, but this just to point out that at least in the system of meditation I practice the word is very specific).


I would suggest that its significance is by association. Not with anything intrinsic.
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Re: Buddho

Postby wouter_doorn » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:25 pm

PeterB wrote:I would suggest that its significance is by association. Not with anything intrinsic.


I guess for people like me these things stay suggestions or ideas or opinions :). Personally I will trust in the teachers who have spend their lifetime meditating and who know due to personal experience. Hopefully I will know one day as well, if it happens this lifetime I'll let you know (if I remember) ;).
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Re: Buddho

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:48 am

Hi All,
Time at the monastery is going well, having a day off so thought I would go to hemel and then walk over to birk for some me time (fwiw)

this is just my own personal reflection on the use of Buddho and may or may not agree with your own or books interpretation on its use.

I find it very helpful to use Bud-dho just in the same way as I find using any other two syllable word with a specific message, or contemplative notion that can be reflected upon as a supplementary practice (such as sim-ple.)
I use it more often while practising walking meditation than at any other time, although for centring on an object of samatha it is very useful if the mind is distracted or raising doubts about practice.
I have been told that it means 'the one who knows' although I have come to prefer 'the one who understands' because knowledge and understanding aren't necessarily equal partners and as a reflection it can be used as a reflection of the Buddha, and those who 'practised well' on how they see things in this knowing or understanding.

just a couple of quick thoughts
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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