Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:26 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sean,

We will obviously have to agree to disagree. As I read it there are approaches with different emphases in the Suttas, Commentaries, and the instructions of modern teachers. Without some general understanding of this I think that it's very easy to get confused about the instructions.


No worries. To each their own.

mikenz66 wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Folks like Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Brahm, quoted previously, do an excellent job of explaining things. =D

I like Ajahn Brahm, he's a talented teacher, but personally I ignore some of his statements about other approaches as overenthusiasm... His opinions are not always shared by the other Ajahn Chah students I've had teachings from, such as Ajahn Tiradhammo.

Metta
Mike


Oh, don't misunderstand -- I don't see eye to eye with every monastic, including Brahm. =)
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:35 pm

Manapa wrote:using english has the same problem, as Pali words can mean something slightly or grossly different to the English being used. look at satipatthana as an example, it can be split in two different ways which give it different meanings to one extent or another, both in pali and translation, and the context could potentially change which is being meant, plus it removes confusion as to what is being meant, take sampajanna as an example one person says alert, another says comprehension so someone who doesn't know the alternative translation is still in the dark, but using a dictionary they are familiar with can find the meaning they are familiar with, and any confusion in the explanation stemming from a post can then be addressed.


I glanced at your "Exploration of the Satipatthana Sutta". I had started writing up a reply to your message, but on second thought I think I'll refrain. I'd like to ask you a question, only tangentially related to the topic: On which side of the "sati-patthana/sati-upatthana" debate are you, and why?
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:53 pm

neither, both are for different reasons accurate as both refer to different things.

The foundations of mindfulness (sati-patthanā) are;
1. Ardent;
2. Alert;
3. Mindful;
4. Putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
The references of mindfulness (sati-upaṭṭhāna) are;
1. Body;
2. Feeling;
3. Mind;
4. Mental Qualities.

it has moved on since then, not a very good exploration for a couple of reasons, mainly for wordings, and clarity.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:01 pm

Manapa wrote:neither, both are for different reasons accurate as both refer to different things.

The foundations of mindfulness (sati-patthanā) are;
1. Ardent;
2. Alert;
3. Mindful;
4. Putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
The references of mindfulness (sati-upaṭṭhāna) are;
1. Body;
2. Feeling;
3. Mind;
4. Mental Qualities.

it has moved on since then, not a very good exploration for a couple of reasons, mainly for wordings, and clarity.


Have you read any academic papers on the subject?
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:08 pm

one or two, looked at the sutta in pali-english translations, talked to pali translators, dictionaries, encyclopedias etc.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:40 pm

Manapa wrote:one or two, looked at the sutta in pali-english translations, talked to pali translators, dictionaries, encyclopedias etc.


I wholeheartedly recommend "Mindfulness in Early Buddhism: New approaches through psychology and textual analysis of Pali, Chinese, and Sanskrit sources" by Tse-fu Kuan. Good read.
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:03 pm

I have a link to the google version although from what I read it has nothing particularly of value not found in other works which I could add to the newer version http://books.google.com/books?id=ZEk2rp ... q=&f=false
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:13 pm

Manapa wrote:I have a link to the google version although from what I read it has nothing particularly of value not found in other works which I could add to the newer version http://books.google.com/books?id=ZEk2rp ... q=&f=false


The google version? The one that ends at page 23? The entire book is 200+ pages.
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:26 pm

Look at the link, :focus:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:33 pm

Manapa wrote:Look at the link, :focus:

Looking at the index, it is over 200 pages, but the text online stops at 125 or so with pages missing inbetween. It is one of those books from Routledge that runs over $100. There may eventually be a cheaper paperback edition.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:45 pm

Yeah, what I have read of the version there the books I have already read are enough without buying that one. it wouldn't add anything specifically new which isn't found in my library, or freely available books online
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Hi Sean,
seanpdx wrote: On which side of the "sati-patthana/sati-upatthana" debate are you, and why?

seanpdx wrote:Have you read any academic papers on the subject?

seanpdx wrote:I wholeheartedly recommend "Mindfulness in Early Buddhism: New approaches through psychology and textual analysis of Pali, Chinese, and Sanskrit sources" by Tse-fu Kuan. Good read.

How about summarising what you think are the important aspects of satipatthana, in light of such works?

Metta
Mike
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:40 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sean,
seanpdx wrote: On which side of the "sati-patthana/sati-upatthana" debate are you, and why?

seanpdx wrote:Have you read any academic papers on the subject?

seanpdx wrote:I wholeheartedly recommend "Mindfulness in Early Buddhism: New approaches through psychology and textual analysis of Pali, Chinese, and Sanskrit sources" by Tse-fu Kuan. Good read.

How about summarising what you think are the important aspects of satipatthana, in light of such works?

Metta
Mike


I was actually hoping to quietly remove myself from this thread. Right speech and all. Perhaps in another thread.
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:07 pm

there are a few relevant threads if you wish to continue on one of them, mahasatipatthana may be the most relevant just do a quick search it was started by me when the forum started for the exploration.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:58 pm

Manapa wrote:there are a few relevant threads if you wish to continue on one of them, mahasatipatthana may be the most relevant just do a quick search it was started by me when the forum started for the exploration.


Yowza. I'm not sure I'd want to contribute to that thread without a proper critical reading of your Exploration. And to do it full justice would take some time! =D
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:22 pm

no critical reading necesary that version isn't brilliant or anything but any addition you think may be appropriate would be welcome, or any unique research you think may be worth looking at, I have just finished/all most finished editing the kaya area of the sutta, just to read through and get it proof read before moving on.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Samatha vs. Vipassana, am I thinking of this correctly?

Postby christopher::: » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:38 pm

Just want to thank everyone for their contributions to this discussion. Reading now, it's been very helpful...

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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