Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

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leo123
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Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by leo123 »

About 8 years ago I went on a Goenka retreat. The first few days went fine with the anapana. But then when we started doing the bodyscan, I started to see bright lights behind my closed eyelids. Wherever I focused my attention for the bodily sensations I would also see a corresponding collection of light. Wherever I moved my attention, light would also move there. I found this to be very strange so I told one of the assistant teachers about it and he told me to ignore the light and that these visualizations were some other technique not to be used. I had no idea what he was talking about(piqued my interest very much). I kept on doing the bodyscan but I found it very difficult to separate the light visualizations from the bodily sensations of the bodyscan technique. I reported back to the teacher about this problem and he sternly warned me to focus on the tactile sensations - not the visual aspect. It kind of freaked me out how strict he was. Later on that night I noticed that I started hallucinating - I would see frogs jumping around on the patterned green floor. I would also see dragons moving around whenever I closed my eyes. I told the teachers about this issue. The head teacher asked me if I had taken a lot of drugs in my life and I told him no. Only marjuana and mdma once each. Basically, the next day the teachers asked me to leave because they said that I was not following their directions. Before I left, the retreat manager asked me to sit down and wait for him. I noticed a few students sat around me and it almost seemed like they were sending some kind of energy my way. Like some kind of vibration that I felt - I didn't know if this was a hallucination or if I was really receiving this from other people. Is this metta? I did not want to leave but they forced me to. Needless to say I had a bit of an anxiety breakdown when I got back home(excommunication is not a pleasant experience). I had to take klonopin to stabilize myself.

Pretty much what I would like to understand is - was everything I described a hallucination or was anything real? - like seeing the bright lights and receiving/sending energy.

Is there any way I can remove the light visualization from the body scan technique? - so that I can go back to another retreat.

Another thing - I read in some article about Goenka and the Dalai Lama talk about seeing the light(like it's some important milestone)...
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?o ... mitstart=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Goenka speaking -
We started at nine o'clock the next morning and at two-thirty or three we were still talking-all about technique. He was very happy with my teaching. But when I said, "Quite a few people on the second day or third day see light," he responded, "No, no. That must be illusion. How can somebody see light in three days? It takes years to see light."

I replied, "Venerable sir, I saw light in my eyes. And so have many other people. I would not say it is an illusion. You better send a few of your lamas and let them experience it. If I am wrong, I will rectify it. I don't teach them that they must see light. It is merely a sign, a milestone on a long path, not the final goal."


Could this be the same light that I saw while doing the bodyscan? Thanks for any responses.
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Ben
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by Ben »

Hi Leo

Unfortunately some ATs are not very knowledgeable and their authoritarian attitude masks their insecurity when they are confronted by something that they haven't witnessed before.
From what you have said, it would appear that you were experiencing some form of visual hallucination during the retreat (re: frogs and dragons). Seeing the lights while maintaining awareness of sensation, isn't that unusual. If it was disturbing you or interupting your ability to maintain awareness of sensation, I would have suggested you return to anapana.
When you left, the AT and servers(?) perhaps were sending you metta.
I'm sorry you had such a difficult introduction. If you wanted to go back, I recommend that you first speak to the area teacher for your country as they are usually more knowledgeable and more experienced. Explain what happened and express your desire to return.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Kenshou
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by Kenshou »

About the nighttime hallucinations, did this occur when you were trying to fall asleep? I ask because it sounds rather like sleep paralysis. You can look it up, but the gist of it being that some weird subjective things can occur at the boundary of sleep. At this point the body can be mostly paralyzed, like during sleep, along with various hallucinations sometimes. I had this when I was younger, sometimes I would wake up in the morning and be unable to move, though I could open my eyes, and sometimes see things, like spiders crawling on the ceiling or something. Very odd, but it isn't that unusual, and nothing to worry about. I would not be surprised if a period of intense meditation might make someone more prone to this.
leo123
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by leo123 »

Ben wrote:Hi Leo

Unfortunately some ATs are not very knowledgeable and their authoritarian attitude masks their insecurity when they are confronted by something that they haven't witnessed before.
From what you have said, it would appear that you were experiencing some form of visual hallucination during the retreat (re: frogs and dragons). Seeing the lights while maintaining awareness of sensation, isn't that unusual. If it was disturbing you or interupting your ability to maintain awareness of sensation, I would have suggested you return to anapana.
When you left, the AT and servers(?) perhaps were sending you metta.
I'm sorry you had such a difficult introduction. If you wanted to go back, I recommend that you first speak to the area teacher for your country as they are usually more knowledgeable and more experienced. Explain what happened and express your desire to return.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben,

Thanks for responding. The lights were not disturbing me- I could still feel the sensations. I just reported it to the AT because I've never seen it before. The AT did mention to go back to anapana. But when I later told him that I was still seeing light he got annoyed with me. I think his strong reaction might have set off the hallucinations I had later that night. However, another thing I noticed was that these lights became more focused over time. To the point that there was light shooting out of my forehead to the area of focus during body scan. I described this to the AT and he seemed disturbed. Another light feature I noticed was that once in a while there would be shimmering light and my body felt relaxed. Do you know what these lights are?
About the metta - is it really possible for me to feel someone else sending me positive vibrations? That's really mind-blowing if true.

Yes I would have to speak to someone before trying the retreat again. Although, even when they told me to leave, they said that I was welcome to come back in the future?!!?

Thanks..
leo123
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by leo123 »

Kenshou wrote:About the nighttime hallucinations, did this occur when you were trying to fall asleep? I ask because it sounds rather like sleep paralysis. You can look it up, but the gist of it being that some weird subjective things can occur at the boundary of sleep. At this point the body can be mostly paralyzed, like during sleep, along with various hallucinations sometimes. I had this when I was younger, sometimes I would wake up in the morning and be unable to move, though I could open my eyes, and sometimes see things, like spiders crawling on the ceiling or something. Very odd, but it isn't that unusual, and nothing to worry about. I would not be surprised if a period of intense meditation might make someone more prone to this.
The dragon hallucination occurred while I was trying to sleep, but I was not paralyzed - I was still tossing and turning. I was awake during the frog hallucination in a dim room about an hour before going to sleep. After these experiences I was able to get up imediately and tell them about my issue. Basically the AT's told me to eat food to settle down. The hallucinations went away when I had the food.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Leo,

When I did a Goenka retreat I discerned a luminous blue triangle while doing the anapanasati component. I received similar advice to you from the AT, focus on the sensations, not the visualisation... and that's fair enough, and getting totally removed from the physical sensation would not be in keeping with the meditation technique you were being taught. That said, I found it difficult to separate the two, the triangle seemed to be a "mind map" of the physical area I was focusing on (i.e. the area around the nose)

This was confirmed later on the retreat when I would have a "mind map" of the physical area I was focusing on during the "sweep en masse"... a little like a mind-created segment of the body, with blue illumination on the mind-map corresponding with the sweeping. I think this mind-map might have been a by-product of the cognitive processes that actually direct the "sweeping", or the movement of the area of attention? What is it that moves the focus? How does it work? The deliberate act of sweeping must involve some volition, and some cognition of the physical space in which the body (and subsequently, feelings) can be observed. Again, the AT wasn't much help, I just persisted with the sweeping, accepting that I could not switch off this visual mind-map even if I wanted to, so whilst I didn't focus on it or try to accentuate it, or focus on it to the exclusion of physical sensations, why try to repress it? That would have merely led to frustration, and it did not interfere with my ability to follow the instructions that were given. If anything, it actually helped.

If you think about it from the AT's perspective though, they have to deal with 20-30 or so people, and try to keep them all tightly-aligned with the technique being taught. They also don't want to be responsible for the enset of some mental illness for which the centre might be sued, and which might cause you great harm. Given the signs you were exhibiting, it's totally understandable why they might send you home - try not to take it personally.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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salmon
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by salmon »

I, too, had once been in a similar situation (in dealing with ATs). My experience was more difficult as I was dealing with a Venerable rather than a lay teacher. I reported to him that I was seeing my body "fall apart" and he snubbed me by saying that he had been practising for decades and had not even seen that, how could I, a mere child in his eyes, achieve that when I had only been meditating for a year or so. Not having learnt how to deal with feelings, I left the temple a day after that, feeling upset and ostracized. I spoke to a lay teacher about it as well and while she did not told me I was hallucinating, told me to ignore it and focus on the tactile sensations instead. That, too, did not make the visions go away. Much later, I found another teacher who, having had the same experience before, taught me how to turn those visions into tools for developing insights. Like what retro said, it could be a by product of something...instead of fighting it, just accept it and park it aside so it doesn't disturb you main focus. Don't reject an apple just because there's a sticker on it.

Meditation is a personal journey and sometimes, we need to go through our own trials and errors to know which is right and which is wrong. If the Goenka method is not working for you, you might want to find another method which is more suited to your temperament. Takes a little bit of shopping around but you will know when you have found the right method.

Good luck and I hope that you can find a suitable teacher soon.
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
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Ben
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by Ben »

Hi leo and all...
leo wrote:Thanks for responding. The lights were not disturbing me- I could still feel the sensations. I just reported it to the AT because I've never seen it before. The AT did mention to go back to anapana. But when I later told him that I was still seeing light he got annoyed with me. I think his strong reaction might have set off the hallucinations I had later that night. However, another thing I noticed was that these lights became more focused over time. To the point that there was light shooting out of my forehead to the area of focus during body scan. I described this to the AT and he seemed disturbed. Another light feature I noticed was that once in a while there would be shimmering light and my body felt relaxed. Do you know what these lights are?
About the metta - is it really possible for me to feel someone else sending me positive vibrations? That's really mind-blowing if true.
Some of the artefacts of meditation that I've experienced include visual, auditory and tactile hallucinations. The main type of light that I "see" tends to be flashing light that seem to occur with the vibrations that are going on within my body. Something similar to the shimmering light you noticed. The light didn't occur with some visualisation of my body, but just against the inside of my eyelids. I'm not sure whether someone can 'feel' metta from someone else.
retro wrote:When I did a Goenka retreat I discerned a luminous blue triangle while doing the anapanasati component. I received similar advice to you from the AT, focus on the sensations, not the visualisation... and that's fair enough, and getting totally removed from the physical sensation would not be in keeping with the meditation technique you were being taught. That said, I found it difficult to separate the two, the triangle seemed to be a "mind map" of the physical area I was focusing on (i.e. the area around the nose)

This was confirmed later on the retreat when I would have a "mind map" of the physical area I was focusing on during the "sweep en masse"... a little like a mind-created segment of the body, with blue illumination on the mind-map corresponding with the sweeping. I think this mind-map might have been a by-product of the cognitive processes that actually direct the "sweeping", or the movement of the area of attention? What is it that moves the focus? How does it work? The deliberate act of sweeping must involve some volition, and some cognition of the physical space in which the body (and subsequently, feelings) can be observed. Again, the AT wasn't much help, I just persisted with the sweeping, accepting that I could not switch off this visual mind-map even if I wanted to, so whilst I didn't focus on it or try to accentuate it, or focus on it to the exclusion of physical sensations, why try to repress it? That would have merely led to frustration, and it did not interfere with my ability to follow the instructions that were given. If anything, it actually helped.
One of the things I've come to realize is that it is really really really hard not to get caught up in some visualisation when one is attempting to move through the body and observe sensations. I've really had to work on just observing the sensation without conccocting a visualization or mental map in my head. Its an occupational hazard with this technique but I think the best thing to do is to try and just relax (mentally as well as physically). And perhaps it is the interaction of observing the sensation against the backdrop of the unconscious mental map of the body while engaging in some subtle visualization that some of the hallucinatory experiences come in. Some of the tactile hallucinations I have had is feeling like I had elongated to ten kilometres with my head somewhere up in the sky and my body reduced in width to a spagetti straw while other times believing my body had morphed into a completely different and irregular shape when observing sensations in my right lower arm and the next minute as I move along, my awareness pops out under my knees. Over the years, those novel events have decreased to the point where I don't really have them any more.
salmon wrote:I, too, had once been in a similar situation (in dealing with ATs). My experience was more difficult as I was dealing with a Venerable rather than a lay teacher. I reported to him that I was seeing my body "fall apart" and he snubbed me by saying that he had been practising for decades and had not even seen that, how could I, a mere child in his eyes, achieve that when I had only been meditating for a year or so. Not having learnt how to deal with feelings, I left the temple a day after that, feeling upset and ostracized. I spoke to a lay teacher about it as well and while she did not told me I was hallucinating, told me to ignore it and focus on the tactile sensations instead. That, too, did not make the visions go away. Much later, I found another teacher who, having had the same experience before, taught me how to turn those visions into tools for developing insights. Like what retro said, it could be a by product of something...instead of fighting it, just accept it and park it aside so it doesn't disturb you main focus. Don't reject an apple just because there's a sticker on it.
Sorry Salmon to hear of your less than ideal experience as well. There's a lot of wisdom in the instruction "just observe whatever manifests" There's an AT I know who is the 'Area Teacher" for a part of SE Australia. I've known him for over twenty years and if I have any difficulty, whether it relates to meditation or ethical dilemma, I speak to him. In the past, instead of raising things with an AT on retreat, I've waited until the course was over before speaking with my mentor/friend.
salmon wrote:If the Goenka method is not working for you, you might want to find another method which is more suited to your temperament. Takes a little bit of shopping around but you will know when you have found the right method.
Excellent advice!

Keep in mind Leo, that the intensity of the Goenka ten-day course may have been a factor in your adverse experience. If that is the case, you might want to investigate a ten-day course at International Meditation Centre. Its almost identical and is run by the successors of U Ba Khin. http://www.internationalmeditationcentre.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; From what i have heard, not quite as intense as the Goenka 10-day course.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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salmon
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by salmon »

Ben wrote: Sorry Salmon to hear of your less than ideal experience as well. There's a lot of wisdom in the instruction "just observe whatever manifests" There's an AT I know who is the 'Area Teacher" for a part of SE Australia. I've known him for over twenty years and if I have any difficulty, whether it relates to meditation or ethical dilemma, I speak to him. In the past, instead of raising things with an AT on retreat, I've waited until the course was over before speaking with my mentor/friend.
On the contrary (and on hindsight) Ben, I'm glad I went through it. "Lessons" such as these teach me how to be more discerning with my experiences. As a result, I'm careful not to get overtly excited or doubtful when I encounter nimittas. :smile:
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
PeterB
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by PeterB »

Nimittas can be scary. Or even worse can reinforce the ego of the experiencer. Experienced instruction is a must. Buddhist meditation is not a DIY excercise. Nimitta are actually very " normal", but we need to know what to expect and how to deal with them and let them go. The Buddha gave us three jewels Buddha Dhamma Sangha. I dont think that he intended that the third jewel be replaced by pixels and good intentions.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:Nimittas can be scary.
Dang right. At one retreat I saw Richard Nixon's face in anything that had a pattern: rugs, wood grain on the floor, cloth. Truly horrifying.
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by PeterB »

That must have taken a wee bit of processing Tilt.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:That must have taken a wee bit of processing Tilt.
Well, not so much. It was a fairly short lived thing. I just recalled that he resigned in disgrace and it was not Spiro Agnew that assumed the presidency. My spirits lifted immediately - joy - and the rest of the retreat went along swimmingly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by PeterB »

Couldnt have a go at processing Gordon Brown could you ?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difficult experience at Goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:Couldnt have a go at processing Gordon Brown could you ?
And Tony Blair while I am at it? I was younger then.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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