multiple simultaneous samadhis

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multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:36 pm

The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis. In it it is described how one uses both the jhana ladder and the kasinas, handling states on them as samadhi at the same time, moving forward and backward through both of them. But how to do this?

I start this kind of practice at the access concentration. I use the term access concentration in the sense Leigh Brasington uses it here:

How do you know access concentration has been established? The mind is fully with the object of meditation and, if there are any thoughts, they are wispy and in the background; they do not draw you away from the meditation object.
http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm


When the object has become stable in my mind but no yet the penetration into it I use the remaining capacity to concentrate on a second object. The objects do not necessarily have to be kasinas and jhanas, because on this level I just want to train the handling of two meditation objects at the same time. For example, one can use a part of the physical body (nostrils, hands...) and a mantra, or two different parts of the body, or two mantras, or a mantra and a visualisation, whatever. I found it is more easy when using objects I have had already reached singular access concentration with before. When samadhi happens it feels as if - very suddenly - the mind splits into two independent spaces, each in lucid absorption with a different object (the lucid aspect is the same). A bit like using two hands simultaneously.

What are your experiences with multiple simultaneous samadhis? Do you start with using two objects during access concentration, too, or are there other techniques?
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:46 pm

Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis.
Please give the exact references.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby pt1 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:16 am

Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis. In it it is described how one uses both the jhana ladder and the kasinas

Hmm, I somehow remember when reading that chapter that it was meant that one kasina is quickly replaced by the other one, so not two kasinas at the same time. Same with jhanas. Perhaps it would be good if you quote the actual text as tilt suggests.

Best wishes
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby appicchato » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:24 am

Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis.


My understanding of the term samadhi is that it is state (of concentration)...as such it is a noun...an uncountable noun...you can have little, or much, samadhi, but not many...
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:15 am

Dear Bhante,

appicchato wrote:
Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis.


My understanding of the term samadhi is that it is state (of concentration)...as such it is a noun...an uncountable noun...you can have little, or much, samadhi, but not many...


I use this term as it is used in yoga. It is identical to how it is used in Tibetan Buddhism and so far I have seen no reason to assume that the Buddha made up another definition of it in the suttas. The term "yogi" appears in the suttas - why should he not have used them in the original meaning? In yoga samadhi describes an experience. The term used for concentration is dharana, dharana leads to samadhi. Either one is in samadhi or not, it refers to the experience not to a gradual development of concentration. To say "I have little samadhi or much samadhi" makes no sense in yoga.

In yoga Samadhi means lucid unification with the meditation object. This can be something like a candle fire or the base of space or a hand or whatever. The experience is described as being one with the object, taking it's perspective, taking that perspective as "I" (an important knowledge to understand the phrase "this is not me, this is not what I am", IMO). For example, when using a hand as an object of concentration (or the nostrils at that) samadhi is reached when one is absorbed into that object. This is meant literally, one penetrates that object until unification is reached. Our center of perspective is usually located somewhere in the head, behind the eyes I would say, but when samadhi with the object "hand" happens the center of perspective becomes the hand. One has excluded the perception of head and thus merged with another object. Jhana works in the same way, one concentrates on more and more subtle objects until unification with it by excluding more gross objects has been reached.

I have been playing this game since before I turned twelve years old. It is rather amusing to shift one's "I" in this way, to know the objects inside out. To fully change one's perspective, to detach from one's default personality and become someone or something else. Until I became more than one.

I have found this experience of multiple selves described in Tibetan Buddhism but not how to reach it. What are the conditions for a multiple "I" to arise? The Visuddhimagga XII finally gave the answer. It describes how to develop the iddhi-vidhā of construing multiple selves by handling multiple simultaneous lucid absorbtions - in this case the elements (that construe bodies) and jhanas.

IMO, the experience of multiple selves is useful for countering the idea of the wrong self. If I can be in identification with a physical body and a mind-made body simultaneously - how can I still consider the physical body as self? The experience of mind-made bodies (astral bodies) is common among people who practice concentration meditation, the impression that one's body is melting, or relocating like sinking into the floor, or flying, seeing or hearing what happens places far away - some people even have a kammic knack for it without any training.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Of particular interest here is the Buddha's treatment of the three "acquisitions of a self." The first — the gross self — refers to the ordinary, everyday sense of identifying with one's body. The latter two — the mind-made acquisition and the formless acquisition — refer to the sense of self that can be developed in meditation. The mind-made acquisition can result from an experience of the mind-made body — the "astral body" — that constitutes one of the powers that can be developed through concentration practice.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


One particular pit-fall when starting with astral experiences is that one considers this new body as "I" and "mine", that it enters and leaves the physical body, a kind of soul. Especially wide-spread belief one finds in New Age. They think that they really leave the physical body, that they need to protect it for some malicious entity might take possession of it. But when one experiences both bodies simultaneously, four hands, two heads (with all the senses), two legs, one body moving around and the other sitting (or lying) - this fear just makes no sense.

Another reason to practice multiple samadhis is the development of sampajanna. To experience a feeling and simultaneously be lucidly aware of this experience requires multi-tasking. The mind has to do two things simultaneously, lucidly, aware - not just on an unconscious level.

And of course, multi-tasking is very useful in every-day life, too.

These are the reason I present this topic here, astral experiences have been described in the topics on this board, and I think people should know what is going on and how to deal with them. Some of the wrong ideas about self can be eliminated even before they arise by at least a sometimes experience of this specific iddhi.

And of course I still have questions regarding this topic myself.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby appicchato » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:36 am


This being a Theravada Buddhism forum, discussing Yoga and Tibetan Buddhism may not get you the answers you're looking for...most here will probably go with something closer to the definition below...I don't see 'unification' mentioned anywhere here...and, personally speaking, things pertaining to 'astral', at this point in time, are over my head...

Wishing you well... :smile:


http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samaadhi.htm

samādhi

'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+ā+Ö hā),

is the fixing of the mind on a single object.

"One-pointedness of mind (cittass' ekaggatā), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44).

Concentration - though often very weak - is one of the 7 mental concomitants inseparably associated with all consciousness. Cf. nāma, cetanā.

Right concentration (sammā-samādhi), as the last link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), is defined as the 4 meditative absorptions (jhāna). In a wider sense, comprising also much weaker states of concentration, it is associated with all karmically wholesome (kusala) consciousness. Wrong concentration (micchā-samādhi) is concentration associated with all karmically unwholesome (akusala) consciousness. Wherever in the texts this term is not differentiated by 'right' or 'wrong', there 'right' concentration is meant .

In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity:

(1) 'Preparatory concentration' (parikamma-samādhi) existing at the beginning of the mental exercise.

(2) 'Neighbourhood concentration' (upacāra-samādhi), i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption (jhāna), which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' (patibhāga-nimitta).

(3) 'Attainment concentration' (appanā-samādhi), i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions. (App.)
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:13 pm

Dear Bhante,

appicchato wrote:[i]
This being a Theravada Buddhism forum, discussing Yoga and Tibetan Buddhism may not get you the answers you're looking for...


That is why I would like to discuss it within the context of the Visuddhimagga.

most here will probably go with something closer to the definition below...I don't see 'unification' mentioned anywhere here...and, personally speaking, things pertaining to 'astral', at this point in time, are over my head...


Not problem. If people are not interested that is fine, too.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samaadhi.htm

samādhi

'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+ā+Ö hā),

is the fixing of the mind on a single object.


Agreed. And the fixing can lead to absorption.

"One-pointedness of mind (cittass' ekaggatā), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44).


When one's mind is one-pointed on a singular object one's perception of that object (can) lead to the arising of "I". This is called samadhi. It is a shift of perspective, a false view of the object as "I". And this is not Liberation but "acquisitions of a self" as the Buddha called it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The more one clings to one's personality, the more one is absorbed in one's personality the more difficult it is to reach samadhi with other objects. Thus practice of samadhi, of shifting one's perspective, the more trained the mind becomes. It eases letting go of the personality-view, of detaching from the acquisitions of self.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:15 pm

pt1 wrote:
Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis. In it it is described how one uses both the jhana ladder and the kasinas

Hmm, I somehow remember when reading that chapter that it was meant that one kasina is quickly replaced by the other one, so not two kasinas at the same time. Same with jhanas. Perhaps it would be good if you quote the actual text as tilt suggests.

Best wishes


Do you know an internet site to quote the Visuddhimagga 12 in english? Otherwise I will have to translate from german and that will take some time.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:42 pm

Dear Bhante,

Leigh Brasington describes at http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm different definitions and kinds of experiences of absorption in the case of jhana. For myself I can only say that I experience the kind of jhana that means the absence of all sense perception that is not necessary for perception of the object. I do not experience being infinite space and my physical body with it's senses of hearing, seeing, smelling etc at the same time (except for multi-tasking, I mean). I do not hear the cars outside when I go into these kind of absorption. I understand that the other kind of definitions are accepted and taught in Theravada but according to that site the one where the senses are really absent - which I call samadhi - is known and accepted in Theravada, too, so I think I don't just talk about yoga or Tibetan Buddhism.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:43 pm

Freawaru wrote:
Do you know an internet site to quote the Visuddhimagga 12 in english? Otherwise I will have to translate from german and that will take some time.

I would rather guess that, like the English version, the German, following the Pali is going to have number paragraphs, so it would be (to make up a citation) XII 34-56.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby pt1 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:27 am

Freawaru wrote:Do you know an internet site to quote the Visuddhimagga 12 in english? Otherwise I will have to translate from german and that will take some time.

Check the pdf downloadable version
http://thepathofpurification.blogspot.com/

Best wishes
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:50 am

Hi Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
Freawaru wrote:The Visuddhimagga XII deals with the practice of multiple simultaneous samadhis.
Please give the exact references.


Okay :) But I give no guarantee regarding my translations.

Vis. XII. 1. states the chapter is about how to develop and master the five abhinna, the first of them are the iddhi-vidhā (the magical powers).

Visuddhimagga 12 wrote:1) "Ist der Geist in dieser Weise gesammelt, geläutert, geklärt, unbefleckt, ungetrübt, geschmeidig, gefügig, gefestigt, unerschütterlich, so richtet und lenkt er seinen Geist auf die mannigfachen Arten von magischen Kräften hin. Er erfreut sich der mannigfachen Arten von magischen Kräften, als wie, einer seiend wird er vielfach, und vielfach geworden wird er wieder einer."...

The mind thus collected, .... the yogi turns and controls his mind to the the multiple kinds of magic powers. He delights in the multiple kinds of magic powers, as being one he becomes many, and being many he becomes one again. ...


Here one can see that multi-tasking is one of the talents this chapter will teach. And not only multi-tasking but even the split into full multiple selves - or rather acquisitions of selves as described here:

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Of particular interest here is the Buddha's treatment of the three "acquisitions of a self." The first — the gross self — refers to the ordinary, everyday sense of identifying with one's body. The latter two — the mind-made acquisition and the formless acquisition — refer to the sense of self that can be developed in meditation. The mind-made acquisition can result from an experience of the mind-made body — the "astral body" — that constitutes one of the powers that can be developed through concentration practice.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Remember, the iddhi-vidhā, the magical powers are mundane powers. One does not need the Buddha's Dhamma for attainment of them, they do not base on vipassana practice but only on concentration. Still, the Buddha displayed them, described them in the suttas and they are taught in the Visuddhimagga. The Visuddhimagga first described how to accomplish them and then - in point 13 and 14 - how to switch to insight practice (insight into them).

Visuddhimagga 12 wrote:Vis. XII. 2. Magical metamorphosis through 14 kinds of mental exercise

Der Übungsbeflissene, der noch ein Anfänger ist und die magische Verwandlung (iddhi-vikubbana) auszuführen wünscht, nämlich, einer seiend vielfach zu werden usw., erwecke zuerst bei jedem der mit dem Weißkasina endenden acht Kasinas (s. IV und V) die acht Erreichungszustände (Vertiefungen).

The yogi, who is still a beginner and wants to accomplish the magical metamorphosis (iddhi-vikubbana), namely being one he becomes many, etc, at first he should arise the eight jhanas at every of the eight kasinas, ending with the Whitekasina, (s. IV und V).


In Visuddhimaggga 4 and 5 the practice and accomplishment of the eight kasinas are described. Via nimitta and all that. No need for jhana. In these two chapters the jhanas are described as an additional accomplishment (Vertiefung in german). One can also see that the kasinas and jhanas are independent accomplishments in this site by Leigh Brasington http://www.leighb.com/jhana2a.htm, he described accomplishment of the jhanas without any kasina practice.

So one handles two objects simultaneously, a kasina and a jhana. Points 1 - 12 then describe how to practice separation of the two "hands", each "holding" a different object (namely one a kasina and the other a jhana), how to control each of these two "hands" independently.

Now, both jhana and kasinas are objects that are supposed to not be easy to accomplish and one needs these two accomplishments to even begin with Visuddhimagga 12. This is the reason why I started this thread with suggesting other objects - there are more easy objects (such as the rising and falling of the abdomen) to practice handling multiple objects. As I said in my first post I think one can even start this practice when reaching access concentration. Multi-tasking, handling different objects of concentration simultaneously and independently of each other, is a useful skill (also for sati-sampajanna) even if one does not want the magical powers in this life. And as these kinds of powers transfer to the next life (thus the repeating admonition reagarding practice in previous lives in the Visuddhimagga) it is also useful to already have this skill when starting the practice of Visuddhimagga 4, 5 and 12, either later in this life or in the next.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Kenshou » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:25 pm

Freawaru wrote:The mind thus collected, .... the yogi turns and controls his mind to the the multiple kinds of magic powers. He delights in the multiple kinds of magic powers, as being one he becomes many, and being many he becomes one again. ...


Here one can see that multi-tasking is one of the talents this chapter will teach. And not only multi-tasking but even the split into full multiple selves - or rather acquisitions of selves as described here:


Perhaps the German text has different nuances of meaning, but the use of "multiple" in this case doesn't seem to me to be used to mean "multiple things simultaneously", but rather is there to signify that there are multiple abilities available for development at that point, as opposed to just one single ability.
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:43 am

Kenshou wrote:
Freawaru wrote:The mind thus collected, .... the yogi turns and controls his mind to the the multiple kinds of magic powers. He delights in the multiple kinds of magic powers, as being one he becomes many, and being many he becomes one again. ...


Here one can see that multi-tasking is one of the talents this chapter will teach. And not only multi-tasking but even the split into full multiple selves - or rather acquisitions of selves as described here:


Perhaps the German text has different nuances of meaning, but the use of "multiple" in this case doesn't seem to me to be used to mean "multiple things simultaneously", but rather is there to signify that there are multiple abilities available for development at that point, as opposed to just one single ability.


Hi Kenshou,

I do not understand. What is your interpretation of the iddhi "as being one he becomes many, and being many he becomes one again" (vikubbana iddhi) ?

But I see that nobody but me is really interested in this topic. No problem. :popcorn:
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby pt1 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:41 am

Freawaru wrote:
But I see that nobody but me is really interested in this topic. No problem. :popcorn:


I think it's more to do with nobody here actually having the experience to say one way or the other. I don't really know either. When I read those chapters in English, i don't get the impression that they are talking about two kasinas at the same time, nor two jhanas at the same time... Rapid switching between different kasinas/jhanas, yes, but not two at the same time. Especially considering abhidhamma on which the book was built. Afaik, citta can have only one object at a time. Which means there can be only one kasina (or the nimitta of it) as a concept that is the object of jhana citta. So even if you're talking about two hands being your nimitta, that doesn't mean you have two objects, but that these two are now a new concept that is the object of citta, instead of the concept of just one hand, or three hands, etc.

That said, I think that I read somewhere that the way iddhis are displayed is by the cittas switching rapidly back and forth from fourth jhana (so a jhana citta that has a nimitta as the object) to an "ordinary" (non-jhana) citta that has a particular element as the object. Or something like that, but I definitely think it was about rapid switching. Not sure if that helps.

I also remember that the whole point of being proficient in the fourth jhana (and all the other masteries of jhana mentioned in Vsdm) is that once there is mastery of it, iddhis will be more "natural" - i.e. whatever you direct the mind towards from the fourth jhana, it'll happen, so you won't really have to try to figure it out as you're trying now. Another is for safety reasons. I.e. I heard some stories where people who were not proficient were playing with the element of fire and ended up burning other people accidentally...

Anyway, why not try and find teachers who have direct experience with this? They would probably be much more competent to give advice on all this stuff.

Best wishes
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby meindzai » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:26 pm

Based on my undestanding of citta, the mind in general doesn't ever do more than one thing at a time, though it can and does create the illusion of doing so by rapidly switching amongst various objects, much the same way computers multitask. i.e. we don't even hear and see at the same time, but the rapid alteration of mind-moments make it seem this way.

So if there is such a thing with samadhi or jhana, it would have to occur in the same way. Though I don't think it sounds very useful.

Though back on usenet once somebody gave a cool concentration exercise once, involving mentally counting forward from 1 to 10 while also counting backwards from 10 to 1. Pretty much makes smoke come out of my ears!

-M
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi pt1,

pt1 wrote:I think it's more to do with nobody here actually having the experience to say one way or the other.


Yeah, I am the freak :cry:

I don't really know either. When I read those chapters in English, i don't get the impression that they are talking about two kasinas at the same time, nor two jhanas at the same time...


You are right. The chapter does not teach two kasinas or two jhanas at the same time (but I am positive it is possible, too). What the chapter teaches is one kasina and one jhana at the same time. Don't you think that normally the sphere of nothingness and "earth, earth" exclude each other? What about the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception and "fire, fire"? How can one be perceptive of a kasina or nimitta and experience the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception? To me this makes no sense.

Especially considering abhidhamma on which the book was built. Afaik, citta can have only one object at a time.


Remember that the iddhis taught here are mundane iddhis. They don't go to the Abhidhamma level that is based on high temporal resolution discernment.

Anyway, why not try and find teachers who have direct experience with this? They would probably be much more competent to give advice on all this stuff.


Finding a good teacher for oneself is not easy. I have had some bad experiences in this regard and I have read of others. It seems not even all so-called teachers and monks and nuns have read the Visuddhimagga as one can get responses like "you can't have this experience after doing the technique for half a day as *me* it took months". The Visuddhimagga states unmistakenly and repeatedly that practice in past lives speeds up any attainment one can reach this one - but who really believes it? So to be honest: I am afraid - I am afraid of not being believed, of being insulted by so-called "authorities" who assume I fake it because they are jealous. I am afraid of wasting time and money for a search of a teacher who maybe does not exist or is otherwise unreachable to me. Call me frustrated :shrug:
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby pt1 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:43 am

Freawaru wrote:Yeah, I am the freak :cry:

Well, I'd say you basically need a peer-group :) I mean there certainly are people around who are interested and have experience with iddhis but usually nobody talks about it openly precisely because it's hard to understand for those who don't have any experience with it (i.e. the majority). So the best advice I can give is to seek out like-minded people rather than discussing it with those of us who really have no idea what we're talking about.

Freawaru wrote:You are right. The chapter does not teach two kasinas or two jhanas at the same time (but I am positive it is possible, too). What the chapter teaches is one kasina and one jhana at the same time.

Yes, I think so, because afaik the first four jhanas (of the form realm) are dependent on the kasina being the object of citta, i.e. there's no jhana without the object - kasina in the case. So, you can (in theory, I've never actually experienced it) rapidly switch between different kasinas while maintaining the same jhana, or you can switch between jhanas with changed kasina, or you can switch between jhanas while maintaining the same kasina. I don't think there are any other theoretical options.
Freawaru wrote:Don't you think that normally the sphere of nothingness and "earth, earth" exclude each other? What about the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception and "fire, fire"? How can one be perceptive of a kasina or nimitta and experience the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception? To me this makes no sense.

As far as I remember reading about it, when it come to formless jhanas (according to Visuddhimagga and commentarial tradition) they happen when the kasina as the object of the fourth jhana (of the form realm) is - removed! So, once you remove the kasina object in the fourth jhana - like earth kasina, you're then left with space - that's the first formless jhana (i.e. of the formless realm). Then when space is removed, only consciousness is left (second formless jhana). Then when consciousness is removed, nothingness is left (third formless jhana). And when nothingness is abandoned, there's neither perception nor non-perception (fourth formless jhana). Either way, if you're interested in iddhis, I don't see the point of playing with formless jhanas, because iddhis happen through the mastery of the fourth (form realm) jhana (I think).

Freawaru wrote:Remember that the iddhis taught here are mundane iddhis. They don't go to the Abhidhamma level that is based on high temporal resolution discernment.

Regardless of whether iddhis (the first 5 abhinnas) are mundane or supramundane (the sixth abhinna), I'm pretty sure that Visuddhimagga was written with abhidhamma as the underlying method. So if you want to understand Visuddhimagga properly, then you'd make your life a lot easier if you take abhidhamma into account as well. I mean, the same person who wrote Visuddhimagga also edited the commentaries to the 7 abhidhamma books and Visudhimagga is constantly referenced in them.

Freawaru wrote:Finding a good teacher for oneself is not easy. I have had some bad experiences in this regard and I have read of others. It seems not even all so-called teachers and monks and nuns have read the Visuddhimagga as one can get responses like "you can't have this experience after doing the technique for half a day as *me* it took months". The Visuddhimagga states unmistakenly and repeatedly that practice in past lives speeds up any attainment one can reach this one - but who really believes it? So to be honest: I am afraid - I am afraid of not being believed, of being insulted by so-called "authorities" who assume I fake it because they are jealous. I am afraid of wasting time and money for a search of a teacher who maybe does not exist or is otherwise unreachable to me. Call me frustrated :shrug:


Well, not sure how much getting frustrated helps :tongue: but I think it's normal to go through several teachers before you find the one that suits you. I think I already mentioned Pa-Auk Sayadaw before. From what I gather online he's one of the few respected teachers who actually have experience with all this stuff and teaches very much based on Visuddhimagga. Sure, I know he's based in Burma, but he travels too, so perhaps you can meet him when he's visiting close to where you are. Also there are several of his pupils that are now teachers in their own right - I think there was one based in Singapore and another one in the US, so they might be easier to get in contact with. Also there are several people here I think that went on retreats at Pa-Auk Sayadaw's centre. Try contacting them. Either way it seems like a better thing to do than getting frustrated, and I would add - in the meantime practice your (full absorption) jhanas (and learn abhidhamma :tongue: ) so you'll know what they're talking about when you actually meet them.

Best wishes
pt1
 
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:00 am

Hi meindzai,

meindzai wrote:Based on my undestanding of citta, the mind in general doesn't ever do more than one thing at a time, though it can and does create the illusion of doing so by rapidly switching amongst various objects, much the same way computers multitask. i.e. we don't even hear and see at the same time, but the rapid alteration of mind-moments make it seem this way.


Yes, I guess this is how it works when looking at it on the Abhidhammic level. After all, one is AWARE of both "hands" (or more of them) simultaneously.

Though back on usenet once somebody gave a cool concentration exercise once, involving mentally counting forward from 1 to 10 while also counting backwards from 10 to 1. Pretty much makes smoke come out of my ears!


:juggling:
Freawaru
 
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Re: multiple simultaneous samadhis

Postby Freawaru » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:38 am

Hi pt1,

I don't see the point of playing with formless jhanas, because iddhis happen through the mastery of the fourth (form realm) jhana (I think).


But why does Visuddhimagga 12 then not only teach fourth form realm jhana? Why all this playing with entering and leaving kasinas and all eight jhanas?

Well, not sure how much getting frustrated helps :tongue:


I am sure it is not helpful at all ...

but I think it's normal to go through several teachers before you find the one that suits you. I think I already mentioned Pa-Auk Sayadaw before.


Yes, I read an on-line book by him. :D

From what I gather online he's one of the few respected teachers who actually have experience with all this stuff and teaches very much based on Visuddhimagga. Sure, I know he's based in Burma, but he travels too, so perhaps you can meet him when he's visiting close to where you are. Also there are several of his pupils that are now teachers in their own right - I think there was one based in Singapore and another one in the US, so they might be easier to get in contact with. Also there are several people here I think that went on retreats at Pa-Auk Sayadaw's centre. Try contacting them. Either way it seems like a better thing to do than getting frustrated, and I would add - in the meantime practice your (full absorption) jhanas (and learn abhidhamma :tongue: )


Yeah, yeah, yeah, if I can find someone who can give those definitions based on experience ... :tongue:

so you'll know what they're talking about when you actually meet them.

Best wishes


Thank you :hug:
Freawaru
 
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