enough motivation for stream entry?

[rowyourboat]

Rate questions on how much you feel (not know) and believe these statements, out of 10, 10 being the most and 0 being the least.

1. ‘I genuinely feel nothing is worth it and everything is pointless ultimately’ /10
2. ‘I genuinely have faith in the Buddha that stream entry is a meaningful goal’ /10
3. ‘I genuinely feel it is possible to reach stream entry in these times (without a Buddha)’ /10
4. ‘I genuinely feel I have enough good karma/parami to reach stream entry (or it doesn’t matter to me)’ /10
5. ‘I genuinely feel I am capable of reaching stream entry in this lifetime’ /10
6. ‘I genuinely feel I must reach stream entry as soon as possible /10’
7. ‘I genuinely feel I must devote my life to this goal’ /10
8. ‘I genuinely feel I must devote my day to this goal’ /10
9. ‘I genuinely feel reaching stream entry is worth more than my other daily duties’ /10
10. ‘I genuinely feel I am motivated to find ways around my other duties so that I can practice for it’ /10
11. ‘I genuinely feel it is urgent enough to put in effort to be mindful the whole day /10
12. ‘I genuinely feel I my chances of getting another opportunity to reach it is uncertain if I don’t do it this time’ /10
13. ‘I genuinely feel that my kalyanamittas/teachers can guide me there and have faith in their ability’ /10
14. ‘I genuinely feel motivated to approach them and obtain instructions’ /10
15. ‘I genuinely feel my human birth is precious (as it allows me to attain stream entry)’ /10
16. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than becoming the richest most powerful and most liked/respected person on this planet’ /10
17. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than becoming the most powerful deva ruling over the heavens’ /10
18. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than winning the lottery’ /10
19. ‘I genuinely feel reaching nibbana is the purpose of my life’ /10
20. ‘I genuinely feel reaching nibbana is a worthwhile goal /10

[Reductor]

Rate questions on how much you feel (not know) and believe these statements, out of 10, 10 being the most and 0 being the least.

1. ‘I genuinely feel nothing is worth it and everything is pointless ultimately’ 0/10
2. ‘I genuinely have faith in the Buddha that stream entry is a meaningful goal’ 10/10
3. ‘I genuinely feel it is possible to reach stream entry in these times (without a Buddha)’ 10/10
4. ‘I genuinely feel I have enough good karma/parami to reach stream entry (or it doesn’t matter to me)’ 10/10
5. ‘I genuinely feel I am capable of reaching stream entry in this lifetime’ 10/10
6. ‘I genuinely feel I must reach stream entry as soon as possible 11/10’
7. ‘I genuinely feel I must devote my life to this goal’ 9/10
With only one reservation: my kids need the best influence possible in their life, so I stay as a layperson until they can take care of themselves
8. ‘I genuinely feel I must devote my day to this goal’ 9/10
Again, for the kids I hold back a little. Still, the care of them is compatible with clear comprehension
9. ‘I genuinely feel reaching stream entry is worth more than my other daily duties’ 9/10
Again ...
10. ‘I genuinely feel I am motivated to find ways around my other duties so that I can practice for it’ 10/10
11. ‘I genuinely feel it is urgent enough to put in effort to be mindful the whole day 10/10
12. ‘I genuinely feel I my chances of getting another opportunity to reach it is uncertain if I don’t do it this time’ 10/10
13. ‘I genuinely feel that my kalyanamittas/teachers can guide me there and have faith in their ability’ 5/10
If I had one, I'm sure I could get very good guidance from them. If I had 'shopped around' a little first.
14. ‘I genuinely feel motivated to approach them and obtain instructions’ 5/10
15. ‘I genuinely feel my human birth is precious (as it allows me to attain stream entry)’ 10/10
16. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than becoming the richest most powerful and most liked/respected person on this planet’ 10/10
17. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than becoming the most powerful deva ruling over the heavens’ 10/10
18. ‘I genuinely feel stream entry is worth more than winning the lottery’ 10/10
19. ‘I genuinely feel reaching nibbana is the purpose of my life’ 9/10
It is the ultimate purpose; but the conventional purpose, guided by love and compassion for my children, is to raise them with skillful qualities first.
20. ‘I genuinely feel reaching nibbana is a worthwhile goal 10/10

So, there you go. As you might see, I'm a bit of a nut But a good kind of nut, IMO. Another reason I stay is that I do not think life for them would be good in any manor of reckoning, and so they might resent the Dhamma, and blame both me and the teachings. That would be very bad for them.

[Guy]

Hi RYB,

If I think "I want to practice now to attain stream entry some time in the future" then I am missing the point. I would be practicing spiritual materialism instead of renunciation. I would be wanting to "get" something for all "my" hard work. As far as I am aware this only leads to suffering.

Therefore, I aim to let go of as much as possible in my mind. My goal is giving things up; giving up my plans, hopes, expectations (realizing that they aren't really "my" plans to begin with, they are 100% conditioned). When I notice the mind is clinging to something I just ask myself "where is this leading?" and a lot of the time the mind just lets it go right then and there.

What a relief it is not to have to become anything!

With Metta,

Guy

[Reductor]

What a relief it is not to have to become anything!

With Metta,

Guy

Not 'become', so much as 'get somewhere'.

Just as a man would give accurate directions to another on how to get to a town, so the Buddha provides accurate directions to us seekers on how to get to nibbana (not a 'place' actually, I know). However, if we are going in the wrong direction we will never notice the landmarks described to us by the Buddha.

Which is what stream entry seems to be, in a sense: a landmark whereby you know that you are going in the right direction, a direction that will lead to the final destination, the goal. Which is why those that seek for nibbana should also have stream-entry as an intermediate goal. Just as a man following directions to a town would be anxious to see such and such landmark or sign, so that he was sure of the rightness of his direction, so to should the spiritual seeker.

IMHO.

[Guy]

Hello Reductor,

What a relief it is not to have to become anything!

With Metta,

Guy

Not 'become', so much as 'get somewhere'.

Just as a man would give accurate directions to another on how to get to a town, so the Buddha provides accurate directions to us seekers on how to get to nibbana (not a 'place' actually, I know). However, if we are going in the wrong direction we will never notice the landmarks described to us by the Buddha.

Which is what stream entry seems to be, in a sense: a landmark whereby you know that you are going in the right direction, a direction that will lead to the final destination, the goal. Which is why those that seek for nibbana should also have stream-entry as an intermediate goal. Just as a man following directions to a town would be anxious to see such and such landmark or sign, so that he was sure of the rightness of his direction, so to should the spiritual seeker.

IMHO.

I agree that Stream-Entry is a sign post that you are moving in the right direction. In my limited experience I have found that when I really want happiness, peace, jhanas, stream-entry, etc. that's when I am not practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, that's when I'm practicing craving. When I just let go and have an attitude of "oh well, whatever happens I will be content with that" that's when all those things that I wanted just manifest by themselves, never through my doing. I don't claim to be enlightened, but I am confident at least of knowing (the difference between) when I am practicing well (letting go) and when I'm being negligent (craving and clinging).

The point I was trying to make is that (for me) letting go (of craving) has been a more skilful attitude than having to become a stream winner in this lifetime.

With Metta,

Guy

[Ben]

Hi RYB

Just out of interest, is there any particular reason you are asking those questions?
metta

Ben

[Reductor]

I agree that Stream-Entry is a sign post that you are moving in the right direction. In my limited experience I have found that when I really want happiness, peace, jhanas, stream-entry, etc. that's when I am not practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, that's when I'm practicing craving. When I just let go and have an attitude of "oh well, whatever happens I will be content with that" that's when all those things that I wanted just manifest by themselves, never through my doing. I don't claim to be enlightened, but I am confident at least of knowing (the difference between) when I am practicing well (letting go) and when I'm being negligent (craving and clinging).

The point I was trying to make is that (for me) letting go (of craving) has been a more skilful attitude than having to become a stream winner in this lifetime.

With Metta,

Guy

I do see where you are coming from, certainly. But it should be recalled that there are Bkikkhus in the canon who asked for Dhamma discourses with the thought: may this discourse bring about my break through to the Dhamma.

As for myself, I to have suffered various forms of grief due to clinging to Dhamma related self-identification. However, I also realize that having an understanding of some state's value, and the factors of its arising, coupled with skill in giving rise to those factors, is skillful. Is this process without craving? No, it contains come craving for any practitioner that is not fully released. If that craving gives rise to the thought "how long until I obtain the goal" then it is renunciation distress, which is not necessarily a bad thing nor an immediate hindrance to the practice. As skill in wholesome states increases, I suppose that this distress can be replaced renunciation equanimity, which is better and more skillful -- and might be closer to what you are doing here.

In posting this response I wish only to discourage indifference to the goal that a less skillful practitioner might confuse with right equanimity.

For anyone who has not done so, give this sutta a read.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[rowyourboat]

The Buddha praised stream entry many times to his monks thereby ( using today's standards) increasing their spiritual materialism. Whoever said that the dhamma is about making peace with the world and not letting go/ renouncing it (not physically) is misguided according to bikkhu bodhi. A few things to think about. Do people really know how to incline their mind to nibbana? It's not possible to have both at the same time.

Ben I am in the process of laying down the attitudes and beliefs required for stream entry for some students who had difficulty with the process. It has forced me to identify the key factors which helped a few of us in the process. Of course there is no certainty about it but we can try. I thought I would share it with the forum. It may not be useful to many people but then there maybe a few...

[Ben]

Hi RYB

Ben I am in the process of laying down the attitudes and beliefs required for stream entry for some students who had difficulty with the process. It has forced me to identify the key factors which helped a few of us in the process. Of course there is no certainty about it but we can try. I thought I would share it with the forum. It may not be useful to many people but then there maybe a few...

Thanks for that. My experience has been that samvega pasada developed naturally. Perhaps as a result of continuing to do meditation retreats on a yearly basis. And I think also having lost some family members - it had the efect of focusing my mind on the three marks of existence and what is most important in this life.
metta

Ben

[Guy]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for that. My experience has been that samvega pasada developed naturally. Perhaps as a result of continuing to do meditation retreats on a yearly basis. And I think also having lost some family members - it had the efect of focusing my mind on the three marks of existence and what is most important in this life.
metta

Ben

One of my closest friends died when he was 18 and I was 17 which had a huge impact on me. I became so much more reflective about life after that and it no longer seemed as if the good times were going to last forever. If I didn't know about death at that age I wonder if I would even be a Buddhist now?

With Metta,

Guy

[Ben]

Hi Guy

Yes, one wonders how life would be if one had not encountered the Dhamma.
Or for that matter, how life would be if one did not encounter those personal apocolypses that inspired us to seek the Dhamma in the first place - or given us that added impetus to follow the path more precisely.
metta

Ben

[rowyourboat]

Hi Ben, Guy

Yes, this got me thinking of the degree of understanding of Dukkha/unsatisfactoriness required to incline the mind towards the 'unclingable' state (or even take it there). It could be successfully argued that 99% of meditators have no concept of the dukka in the four noble truths and hence the rest of the practice (of the noble eightfold path) which is generated from that wrong view does not lead to a right liberation.

Dukkha understanding for sotapanna –dukkha sacca
Please rate how much you feel (not theoretically know) and believe the following, out of 10, 10 being the most, 0 being the least.

I genuinely feel that nothing in this world can ultimately satisfy me /10
I genuinely feel that there is nothing the world can ultimately offer me/10
I genuinely feel the unsatisfactoriness in this world is too much/10
I genuinely feel that the pleasures of the world aren’t satisfying ultimately/10
I genuinely don’t feel the pleasures in the world are worth much/10
I genuinely feel that pleasures are transient /10
I genuinely feel that every moment in my day is a manifestation of unsatisfactoriness/10
I genuinely feel that youth is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on youth is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel that wealth/property is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on wealth/property is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel we loose people (parents, siblings, partners, children) ultimately, and ultimately isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on people is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel that health is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on health isn’t reliable/10
I genuinely feel that the effort needed to feed, clothe, keep healthy, adorn, house, this body is enormous/10
I genuinely feel that effort needed to satisfy the mind’s cravings, aversions, angers, jealousies, attachments, sorrows, self- criticisms, ego, ambitions, needs, sensitivities are enormous/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my life is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control others is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my mind is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my body (aging, disease, pain, death) is limited/10
I genuinely feel pain, sorrow, old age, disability, sickness and death, loosing loved ones, having to be with unpleasant people is suffering/10
I genuinely feel I am subject to bad karma which is beyond my control/10
I genuinely feel that the effects of my good karma is transient and not worth it/10
I genuinely feel that rebirth in deva realms is transient and not worth it/10
I genuinely feel birth is unsatisfactory/10
I genuinely feel whatever arises is suffering/10
I feel that nibbana is the only ultimately worthwhile goal/10
I feel stream entry is a worthwhile goal/10

with karuna

[retrofuturist]

Greetings RYB,

I might decline your survey, but I think it's good that we're at least looking at stream-entry as a viable (and incredibly meaningful goal!) for this lifetime.

I think it is an appropriate goal for lay practitioners who are serious about the Dhamma.

So cudos to you...

Metta,
Retro.

[rowyourboat]

Thanks Retro, I've had doubts posting this -part of me thinking who in his right mind would want to feel like this even for a limited period of time. I can only imagine what the Buddha felt when he started thinking about his marketing campaign! But that is the genius of it I suppose. Some people are strong enough to go through this and come out the other side.

I think it is worthwhile adding here that understanding dukkha, or the seeing the truth of dukkha is not the same as falling into suffering. The former is happening at intellectual+mild emotional level while the latter is only emotional and of no use to anyone. In fact the Buddha says that mental suffering (domanassa) must be left behind when being mindful (Satipatthana sutta). Seeing impermanance of whatever arises, with the sense of unsatisfactoriness in the back of ones mind (ie-with an understanding of the implications of impermanance) is important. Seeing impermanance and then going to watch some tv, some more impermanance reach for the beer, is not going to work.

[salty-J]

Hi Ben, Guy

Yes, this got me thinking of the degree of understanding of Dukkha/unsatisfactoriness required to incline the mind towards the 'unclingable' state (or even take it there). It could be successfully argued that 99% of meditators have no concept of the dukka in the four noble truths and hence the rest of the practice (of the noble eightfold path) which is generated from that wrong view does not lead to a right liberation.

Dukkha understanding for sotapanna –dukkha sacca
Please rate how much you feel (not theoretically know) and believe the following, out of 10, 10 being the most, 0 being the least.

I genuinely feel that nothing in this world can ultimately satisfy me /10
I genuinely feel that there is nothing the world can ultimately offer me/10
I genuinely feel the unsatisfactoriness in this world is too much/10
I genuinely feel that the pleasures of the world aren’t satisfying ultimately/10
I genuinely don’t feel the pleasures in the world are worth much/10
I genuinely feel that pleasures are transient /10
I genuinely feel that every moment in my day is a manifestation of unsatisfactoriness/10
I genuinely feel that youth is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on youth is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel that wealth/property is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on wealth/property is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel we loose people (parents, siblings, partners, children) ultimately, and ultimately isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on people is unreliable/10
I genuinely feel that health is transient, isn’t worth much/10
I genuinely feel that basing my happiness on health isn’t reliable/10
I genuinely feel that the effort needed to feed, clothe, keep healthy, adorn, house, this body is enormous/10
I genuinely feel that effort needed to satisfy the mind’s cravings, aversions, angers, jealousies, attachments, sorrows, self- criticisms, ego, ambitions, needs, sensitivities are enormous/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my life is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control others is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my mind is limited/10
I genuinely feel that my ability to control my body (aging, disease, pain, death) is limited/10
I genuinely feel pain, sorrow, old age, disability, sickness and death, loosing loved ones, having to be with unpleasant people is suffering/10
I genuinely feel I am subject to bad karma which is beyond my control/10
I genuinely feel that the effects of my good karma is transient and not worth it/10
I genuinely feel that rebirth in deva realms is transient and not worth it/10
I genuinely feel birth is unsatisfactory/10
I genuinely feel whatever arises is suffering/10
I feel that nibbana is the only ultimately worthwhile goal/10
I feel stream entry is a worthwhile goal/10

with karuna

if that list of statements were one of those checklists to see if you have such and such disorder, or clinical depression or one of those self-diagnostic surveys like that, I have to say I have that.

[rowyourboat]

Clinical depression makes a person has poor sleep, poor appetite, early morning waking, poor concentration, guilt, shame, helpless, worthless and feel sad and suicidal. This has none of that. Depression is a feeling (mood only), this is an understanding (insight+mild mood). The former is a the result of life events or sometimes seemingly no cause, the latter is a result of specific contemplation in this manner or a results of vipassana/insight meditation. No need to get the two mixed up! Golf balls and limes may look similar (spheres) but they serve very different functions.

[salty-J]

Clinical depression makes a person has poor sleep, poor appetite, early morning waking, poor concentration, guilt, shame, helpless, worthless and feel sad and suicidal. This has none of that. Depression is a feeling (mood only), this is an understanding (insight+mild mood). The former is a the result of life events or sometimes seemingly no cause, the latter is a result of specific contemplation in this manner or a results of vipassana/insight meditation. No need to get the two mixed up! Golf balls and limes may look similar (spheres) but they serve very different functions.

oh no, no, I am not mixing them up, I am just sort of joking about how the survey resembles those one might find online, or in a magazine to get an idea if you should ask your doctor about ADHD, or fibromyalgia, or depression, for example; if you answered "yes" to 7 or more of these questions.....you see the truth of Dukkha!
I still find the fact that I'd rate the mass majority of those points on the list with a high number depressing, but I believe, intellectually anyway, that it is because of my clinging to views...

[Vardali]

I am still busy trying to aim at streamentry without "wanting" it. So forme, Guy's post was spot on
And so for me it is currently perfectly sufficient, to say "this is good enough" and actually fully truely meaning it

with metta,
V.

[salmon]

Ben I am in the process of laying down the attitudes and beliefs required for stream entry for some students who had difficulty with the process. It has forced me to identify the key factors which helped a few of us in the process. Of course there is no certainty about it but we can try. I thought I would share it with the forum. It may not be useful to many people but then there maybe a few...

Hello RYB,

The one important attitude that practitioners seeking the stream need to cultivate is honesty. When you can brutally honest with yourself on your practice, moments of giving in to defilements, improvements, experiences, etc, you will find your meditation progresses quickly and smoothly. Of course, it is not the ONLY factor, but it is, rather, an assisting factor.

I find myself unable to do the survey because I am unable to overcome my ego wanting me to give all questions a perfect 10. Does that mean that I have all the qualities to become a stream entrant? No. It means I have a long way to go in this battle with the ego.

The very bit I can do for myself now is to accept the uncomfortable truth that the ego is winning this battle in deceiving myself that I am a good person and that I am doing it all right.

Instead, I think the questions should be...
1. How regularly am I maintaining my 5 precepts flawlessly and faultlessly?
2. How regularly do I check myself, and bring my mind back to normalcy, when I'm liking or disliking something?
3. How regularly am I watching my mind as it bounces from past to future?

No need to answer them out. All we need is to know the answer deep inside

[rowyourboat]

Hi Salmon

Honesty is indeed extremely important- otherwise we will deceive ourselves as to who we really are in terms of our practice and defilements. Without knowing these the whole path is sabotaged.

with metta

RYB