What is ill will ?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:54 am

"Ill will" (vyapada) is one of the hinderances suppressed by jhana. But what exactly is it? How can one recognise it when going into jhana?

Repeating Ben's quote from here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4007&p=59434#p59434

Zest (piti): Piti, derived from the verb pinayati meaning “to refresh”, may be explained as delight or pleasurable interest in the object. The term is often translated as rapture, a rendering which fits its role as a jhana factor but may not be wide enough to cover all its nuances[iv] . The commentators distinguished five grades of piti that arise when developing concentration: minor zest, momentary zest, showering zest, uplifting zest, and pervading zest. Minor zest is able to raise the hairs on the body. Momentary zest is like flashes of lightening. Showering zest beaks over the body again and again like waves on the sea shore. Uplifting zest can cause the body to levitate. And pervading zest pervades the whole body as an inundation fills a cavern. The latter is identified as the piti present in jhana[v]. As a factor of jhana, piti inhibits the hindrance of ill will (vyapada).


Into German "ill will" translates as something like animosity, enmity, hatred, antagonism, wanting something evil, and so on. Is this the correct translation of ill will? Because I cannot discern it. What is meant by animosity in this context? General animosity? What does one hate? Or maybe animosity to the object of concentration that is suppressed for absorption (unity) to happen? Does anybody know or can discern what kind of ill will is inhibited by piti - or to put it differently: what exactly is inhibited the moment piti arises? For though I can discern that piti arises (it is hard to not notice it, isn't it?) I have not been able to discern what is inhibited that moment, what is not there at that moment when piti arises.
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:25 am

Greetings Freawaru,

Freawaru wrote:What is meant by animosity in this context? General animosity? What does one hate? Or maybe animosity to the object of concentration that is suppressed for absorption (unity) to happen?


Regardless of the subject, the mindstate is the same.

Freawaru wrote:Does anybody know or can discern what kind of ill will is inhibited by piti - or to put it differently: what exactly is inhibited the moment piti arises? For though I can discern that piti arises (it is hard to not notice it, isn't it?) I have not been able to discern what is inhibited that moment, what is not there at that moment when piti arises.


It is not possible to simultaneously have a wholesome and an unwholesome mindstate.

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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:47 pm

Hi Freewaru

I strongly believe the idea of the five hindrances being suppressed by a specific jhana factor is a fabrication of the commentarialists. You are not going to see it in real practice.

bw

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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby IanAnd » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:39 pm

Freawaru wrote:"Ill will" (vyapada) is one of the hinderances suppressed by jhana. But what exactly is it? How can one recognise it when going into jhana?

Ben's quotation:
"And pervading zest pervades the whole body as an inundation fills a cavern. The latter is identified as the piti present in jhana[v]. As a factor of jhana, piti inhibits the hindrance of ill will (vyapada)." --p. 58: compendium of consciousness in A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma.

Freawaru, save yourself some time and effort and don't get your knickers in such a bunch over this. It is not that important that you be able to recognize this while practicing absorption. If, before you enter absorption, the mind is filled with ill will, then it is much easier to see as the mind enters absorption. But if it is not present, then it's not so easy to confirm each time you enter absorption. You have to remember that the quotation that Ben gave originated from a commentarial document (the CMA). It is therefore someone's opinion or general observation based upon a study of the abhidhamma. But certainly not something that one necessarily need become aware of on every occasion on entering absorption.

What I'm endeavoring to say is that you are giving this subject too much importance in the general outlook of your practice. It is not necessary to be able to pinpoint every little nuance of what is happening as it is happening when you are in the middle stages of your overall practice. Later on in the overall course of your practice, as the mind becomes more and more stable, you may be more able to recognize these nuances more clearly. But it's really not that important in the intermediate stage.

Ill will is not a hindrance in the sense of its being one of the "Five Hindrances." Ill will has been categorized in Theravada practice, and I think perhaps rightly so, as one of the Ten Fetters of Existence. It is the fifth factor, to be specific. It is therefore a mind state to be recognized and not necessarily a proper "hindrance" to jhana meditation (whether or not it contributes to hindering the arising of jhana).

Freawaru wrote:Into German "ill will" translates as something like animosity, enmity, hatred, antagonism, wanting something evil, and so on. Is this the correct translation of ill will? Because I cannot discern it.

Yes. What you have stated is the correct understanding of ill will.

Freawaru wrote:Does anybody know or can discern what kind of ill will is inhibited by piti

Any kind. We're speaking about a mind state. Not a specific object or subject of ill will. Can you see the difference?

Freawaru wrote:...or to put it differently: what exactly is inhibited the moment piti arises?

The mind state of ill will is inhibited. It is difficult to maintain hatred or animosity in the mind while experiencing such a pleasurable state. That's all this comment from the abhidhamma is pointing out. Is it important that you recognize this? Maybe, maybe not. Usually, you are so caught up in the piti and the sukha that the matter of ill will is beside the point. See? What is not there (in terms of ill will not being present in the mind), is NOT THERE, period, to see. Understand?
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQr_zQfW6rQ
maybe this vid will be of help to you
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:44 pm

Hi IanAnd,
IanAnd wrote:Ill will is not a hindrance in the sense of its being one of the "Five Hindrances." Ill will has been categorized in Theravada practice, and I think perhaps rightly so, as one of the Ten Fetters of Existence. It is the fifth factor, to be specific. It is therefore a mind state to be recognized and not necessarily a proper "hindrance" to jhana meditation (whether or not it contributes to hindering the arising of jhana).


I found your exposition very helpful, and insightful. Howwever, I'm a little confused because I thought Frauwaru was talking about the ill will listed as one of the hindrances:

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 1p%C4%81da
Vyāpāda: 'ill-will', is a synonym of dosa see: mūla. It is one of the 5 hindrances nīvarana and one of the 10 mental chains samyojana.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... d.htm#dosa
Dosa: 'hatred', anger, is one of the 3 disadvantageous, roots mūla. - d. citta hate consciousness; see: Tab. I 30, 31.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%ABvarana
Nīvarana: 'hindrances', are 5 qualities which are obstacles to the mind and blind our mental vision. In the presence of them we cannot reach neighbourhood-concentration upacāra-samādhi and full concentration appanā-samādhi, and are unable to discern clearly the truth. They are:

1. sense-desire kāmacchanda,
2. ill-will vyāpāda,
3. lethargy and Laziness thīna-middha,
4. restlessness and regrets uddhacca-kukkucca and
5. skeptical doubt vicikicchā.

In the beautiful similes in A. V, 193, sense-desire is compared with water mixed with many colours, ill-will with boiling water, lethargy and Laziness with water covered by moss, restlessness and regrets with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both.

Regarding the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances on entering the first absorption, the stereotype sutta text e g. A. IX, 40 runs as follows:

He has cast away sense-desire; he dwells with a heart free from sense-desire; from desire he cleanses his heart.

He has cast away ill-will; he dwells with a heart free from ill-will, cherishing love and Pity toward all living beings, he cleanses his heart from ill-will.

He has cast away lethargy and Laziness; he dwells free from lethargy and Laziness; loving the light, with watchful mind, with clear consciousness, he cleanses his mind from lethargy and Laziness.

He has cast away restlessness and regrets; dwelling with mind undisturbed, with heart full of peace, he cleanses his mind from restlessness and regrets.

He has cast away skeptical doubt; dwelling free from doubt, full of confidence in the good, he cleanses his heart from doubt.

He has put aside these 5 hindrances, and come to know these paralysing defilements of the mind. And far from sensual contacts, far from disadvantageous things, he enters into the first absorption, etc

The overcoming of these 5 hindrances by the absorptions is, as already pointed out, a merely temporary suspension, called 'overcoming through repression' vikkhambhana-pahāna. They disappear forever on entering the 4 supra-mundane paths see: ariya-puggala i.e. skeptical doubt on reaching Sotāpanship; sense-desire, ill-will and mental worry on reaching Anāgāmiship; lethargy, Laziness and restlessness on reaching Arahatship.

For their origination and their overcoming, see: A. I, 2; VI, 21; S. XLVI, 51.

See The Five Mental Hindrances, by Nyanaponika Thera WHEEL 26.


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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby IanAnd » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:37 am

mikenz66 wrote:I found your exposition very helpful, and insightful. Howwever, I'm a little confused because I thought Frauwaru was talking about the ill will listed as one of the hindrances:

Mike

Point well taken. My mistake.

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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:33 am

Thank you, Everybody, for your help. :smile:


I am still working on getting a clear, self-consistent definition ... :thinking:

Manapa wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQr_zQfW6rQ
maybe this vid will be of help to you


Thank you, Manapa, an interesting, new (to me) idea to translated "ill will" as inconsiderateness (Rücksichtslosigkeit). :smile:
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:58 am

Is it not an absence ?
An absence of metta, mudita , karuna, and so on ?
Leading to a mindset characterised by an absence of what Eric Berne called "positive regard" to life.
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:14 am

Hello IanAnd,

IanAnd wrote:What I'm endeavoring to say is that you are giving this subject too much importance in the general outlook of your practice. It is not necessary to be able to pinpoint every little nuance of what is happening as it is happening when you are in the middle stages of your overall practice. Later on in the overall course of your practice, as the mind becomes more and more stable, you may be more able to recognize these nuances more clearly. But it's really not that important in the intermediate stage.


I think I understand what you say, "focus your practice on reaching those states rather than dissecting them" :P It is a good advice, too. But I have this fear of being too fast, the fear that my understanding is not able to keep track with my experiences and slowing down, analysing each step intellectually seems to help. Thus, when I practice concentration meditation I try to keep mindfulness and analysing as stable as possible. But now the questions arise of the terminology. To translate Vyāpāda "ill will" as inconsiderateness is rather different than to translate it as a synonym of dosa. The absence of dosa is easily discerned when going into jhana because piti is such a pleasant feeling that dosa - attraction to (greed for) this pleasant feeling - can be seen. On the other hand I don't see how absence of inconsiderateness could enter the equation because jhana is something one does for oneself. One could say that while I practice jhana I am inconsiderate to all other persons because I do NOT do something good to them, or think about them in the first place.

Freawaru wrote:Into German "ill will" translates as something like animosity, enmity, hatred, antagonism, wanting something evil, and so on. Is this the correct translation of ill will? Because I cannot discern it.

Yes. What you have stated is the correct understanding of ill will.


Well, when I am in jhana I want it to stay thus one could say that there is enmity to the non-jhanic states. Also, practitioners are hardly pleased when they are disturbed and jhana broken (either by situations, other persons, or own thoughts) thus a certain enmity can still be detected. At the moment I don't see how the actual experience of jhana does agree with these definitions.

And then there are these http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 6.html#ill

This sounds as if ill-will does not hinder awarenesss/knowing (sampajanna):
When ill-will is present in him, the monk knows, "There is ill-will in me," or when ill-will is absent he knows, "There is no ill-will in me." He knows how the arising of non-arisen ill-will comes to be; he knows how the rejection of the arisen ill-will comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the rejected ill-will comes to be.


On the other hand this one seem to say that ill-will blocks sampajanna because the analogy to mirror or reflection:

If there is a pot of water heated on the fire, the water seething and boiling, a man with a normal faculty of sight, looking into it, could not properly recognize and see the image of his own face. In the same way, when one's mind is possessed by ill-will, overpowered by ill-will, one cannot properly see the escape from the ill-will which has arisen; then one does not properly understand and see one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized.


And then we have this:

Thus one should consider: "Being angry with another person, what can you do to him? Can you destroy his virtue and his other good qualities? Have you not come to your present state by your own actions, and will also go hence according to your own actions? Anger towards another is just as if someone wishing to hit another person takes hold of glowing coals, or a heated iron-rod, or of excrement. And, in the same way, if the other person is angry with you, what can he do to you? Can he destroy your virtue and your other good qualities? He too has come to his present state by his own actions and will go hence according to his own actions. Like an unaccepted gift or like a handful of dirt thrown against the wind, his anger will fall back on his own head."


and it confuses me even more because indeed one person can harm the virtue and other good qualities of another person. Another person could damage my brain by drugs or physical damage or torture or brain cancer from chemicals or radiation and this would harm my virtue and good qualities severely indeed.

The sources seem to use different definitions of vyapada.
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:28 am

Thank you, Mike, for those quotes :smile:

mikenz66 wrote:http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... 4%ABvarana
Nīvarana: 'hindrances', are 5 qualities which are obstacles to the mind and blind our mental vision. In the presence of them we cannot reach neighbourhood-concentration upacāra-samādhi and full concentration appanā-samādhi, and are unable to discern clearly the truth. They are:

1. sense-desire kāmacchanda,
2. ill-will vyāpāda,
3. lethargy and Laziness thīna-middha,
4. restlessness and regrets uddhacca-kukkucca and
5. skeptical doubt vicikicchā.

In the beautiful similes in A. V, 193, sense-desire is compared with water mixed with many colours, ill-will with boiling water, lethargy and Laziness with water covered by moss, restlessness and regrets with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both.



This sounds as if the "hinderances" block sampajanna to arise. Makes sense to me as (except for those on the dry insight path) sampajanna is first experienced during jhana. Maybe, maybe ... the idea is that at first they block sampajanna, then one encounters sampajanna (seeing the clear reflection, the mirror is calm and clean) and then through switching to insight practice one can keep that sight even when those hinderances appear again ...

The overcoming of these 5 hindrances by the absorptions is, as already pointed out, a merely temporary suspension, called 'overcoming through repression' vikkhambhana-pahāna. They disappear forever on entering the 4 supra-mundane paths see: ariya-puggala i.e. skeptical doubt on reaching Sotāpanship; sense-desire, ill-will and mental worry on reaching Anāgāmiship; lethargy, Laziness and restlessness on reaching Arahatship.


This seems to agree with it. Of course, "disappearance" here would mean that one is not hindered by them any more. One can see one's reflection even when the water is covered by moss. A new kind of sight ...
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:30 am

In response to the op I can offer some practical examples of how I observe this during insight and tranquility practices. I've found these kinds of approaches beneficial to furthering my understanding and so perhaps some of what I have observed may be useful to others as well.

When I sit or walk and meditate I usually begin with noting. Whether I am noting the naturally arising sequence of sensations or I am sweeping the body more methodically and noting sensations I am aware of both the movement and the change involved in those sensations. The natural response of the mind to all of this diversity is that the sensations which arise may either be pleasant in which case the mind often naturally gravitates towards these (aka desire) or the sensations may be neutral in which case the mind can respond with a variety of similarly neutral responses such as lethargy, boredom and confusion or the sensations may be unpleasant in which case the mind typically responds by moving quickly away (aka aversion or ill will).

After I have calmed the part of my mind that has been conventionally involved in fabricating willful thought by sufficiently attending to the sensations in my body it will become less scattered and distracted by that routine and mundane activity. When my attention is sufficiently focused I often turn my attention specifically to the sensations of my breath. I energetically apply my cleared and attentive mind to the sensations of the breath entering and exiting the body. I focus on the breath sensations until the breath sensations are all that I am aware of or as close to this as possible. Then I reapply this simple and slow and steady sensation of the breath to the whole body as if the sensation of air moving slowly in and out of the body is the only sensation that is felt in all of the body. Slowly breathing in and out while mindfully filling the entire body with the sensation of breathing is a very relaxing and pleasant exercise and the body slowly becomes filled with this relatively steady and pleasant sensation.

This is simple and natural way to move from insight practice to tranquility or concentration practice that involves bringing the mind out of it's thoughts by turning it to the body and then bringing it out of the diversity of the body into the steady simplicity of the breath. When this approach is effective, the hindrances, in the very immediate way that these appear in the body, feelings and mind, are overcome by bringing the mind to clarity and attention, then providing a steady, calm and pleasant object which can fully absorb that attention and then filling the entire body and mind with that absorption of the mind in the sensation of breathing. In this way a sensation of pleasantness fills the whole body and in this way the mind overcomes the diversity of sensations that ordinarily arise in the body.

This is how I understand concentration overcoming the hindrances, in the five aggregates, in the ongoing present of meditation practice. There are other ways that this can be done but this is one example of the kind of exercise in skillfulness that works for me in practice. The principle is always the same, a mind which is singularly attending to that which is pleasant is not subject to the unpleasantness that continually arises when there is diversity of sensations.

After a period of pleasant concentration the mind has been for a time relieved of the unpleasantness of the diversity of sensations and so it is more clear. When one returns then to attending to the body and sensations one can more clearly discern the moment to moment changes from pleasant to neutral to unpleasant and so on. Because the mind has been free of the hindrances when it was concentrated the qualities of the hindrances will become more discernible for what they are when these eventually return some time after the diversity of sensations has again gained some of it's natural momentum and the mind also begins to return to its unskillful patterns of responses. When the hindrances can be understood in terms of what it is like for them to be absent one can then discern the absence of the hindrances even when the mind is not concentrated in a pleasant absorption. A mind that is free of the hindrances but not in a concentration is useful for very skillful insight practice and will make good progress on the path of further purifying the mind and developing the understanding that leads to freedom.

This has been an attempt to describe an approach to developing skillfulness in observing the aggregates for what they are by employing insight to support concentration and concentration to support insight. The mind that is aware of the pleasantness of absorbed concentration is made more acutely aware of the contrasts that can be attended to in the three characteristics as these proceed to arise naturally as sensations in the body. The mind which has experienced the contrast between concentrated and diversified attention has this kind of direct insight into the unsatisfactory nature of diversity as opposed to the relatively steady pleasantness of a concentrated mind. Employing both qualities of attention in this kind of way the clarity of insight supports the inclination to concentration and the pleasantness and peace of concentration supports the inclination to develop more clarity of insight. In this way the practice of both insight and concentration can continue to feedback beneficially to each other in a manner that can continue all along the path for as long as one continues to practice and develop towards complete understanding and peace.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:07 pm

Freawaru wrote:Thank you, Everybody, for your help. :smile:


I am still working on getting a clear, self-consistent definition ... :thinking:

Manapa wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQr_zQfW6rQ
maybe this vid will be of help to you


Thank you, Manapa, an interesting, new (to me) idea to translated "ill will" as inconsiderateness (Rücksichtslosigkeit). :smile:


It helped me, as I had the same "issue" as the monk did.

glad I bookmarked that vid now :)
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:27 am

Hello Nathan,

thank you very much for your description of your experience. :smile:

nathan wrote:
When I sit or walk and meditate I usually begin with noting. Whether I am noting the naturally arising sequence of sensations or I am sweeping the body more methodically and noting sensations I am aware of both the movement and the change involved in those sensations. The natural response of the mind to all of this diversity is that the sensations which arise may either be pleasant in which case the mind often naturally gravitates towards these (aka desire) or the sensations may be neutral in which case the mind can respond with a variety of similarly neutral responses such as lethargy, boredom and confusion or the sensations may be unpleasant in which case the mind typically responds by moving quickly away (aka aversion or ill will).


Yes. It makes some sense to use vyapada (ill will) as a synonym for dosa (aversion) in this context. Though I still wonder why a different Pali word is used.

During Jhana dosa should not appear because jhana means a pleasant feeling and to this the reaction is greed (lobha), one is attracted to it. It seems to me that greed (lobha) helps the concentration.
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:41 am

Freawaru wrote:Yes. It makes some sense to use vyapada (ill will) as a synonym for dosa (aversion) in this context. Though I still wonder why a different Pali word is used.

During Jhana dosa should not appear because jhana means a pleasant feeling and to this the reaction is greed (lobha), one is attracted to it. It seems to me that greed (lobha) helps the concentration.

hi Freawaru

In Jhana none of the hindrances can arise because the mind has stabilized into a singularity with only the given qualities of the Jhana present. When the mind exits Jhana the wavering between attraction and aversion slowly resumes. Ill will begins when the aversion is further cultivated by additional mental fabrications. For instance an unpleasant sensation arises in the body followed by aversion arising in the mind and then the mind adds a further thought to this such as "I don't like this feeling". Aversion is the initial response while ill will continues from there by adding more thought, and potentially speech and action to the initial aversion. Obviously if the process can be halted at simply noting the aversion before engaging the mind further then one can remain in a condition closer to the kind of bare attention necessary for effective insight work and also more able to return to the condition of full concentration typical of jhana.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:23 pm

Hi Nathan,

nathan wrote:In Jhana none of the hindrances can arise because the mind has stabilized into a singularity with only the given qualities of the Jhana present. When the mind exits Jhana the wavering between attraction and aversion slowly resumes. Ill will begins when the aversion is further cultivated by additional mental fabrications. For instance an unpleasant sensation arises in the body followed by aversion arising in the mind and then the mind adds a further thought to this such as "I don't like this feeling". Aversion is the initial response while ill will continues from there by adding more thought, and potentially speech and action to the initial aversion. Obviously if the process can be halted at simply noting the aversion before engaging the mind further then one can remain in a condition closer to the kind of bare attention necessary for effective insight work and also more able to return to the condition of full concentration typical of jhana.


So - if I understand you correctly - there is a difference between vyapada (ill will) and dosa (aversion). They are not identical. One (dosa) can give rise to the other (vyapada). Is this right? Does this mean that during jhana dosa might be present even while vyapada is not?
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:12 am

Freawaru wrote:Hi Nathan,
So - if I understand you correctly - there is a difference between vyapada (ill will) and dosa (aversion). They are not identical. One (dosa) can give rise to the other (vyapada). Is this right? Does this mean that during jhana dosa might be present even while vyapada is not?
The one follows on the other. Ill will can be slight enough that it appears almost the same as aversion but they are slightly different. In Jhana neither of these will arise as there is only the qualities of the Jhana present and these prevent any of the hindrances and attraction and aversion from arising. Jhana is just jhana qualities but when attraction or aversion arises again it will end the jhana and then ill will and the rest will again have a potential foothold.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby cooran » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am

Hello Nathan, all,

vyāpāda: 'ill-will', is a synonym of dosa (s. mūla); it is one of the 5 hindrances (nīvarana) and one of the 10 fetters (samyojana).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm

Vyāpāda
Vyāpāda [fr. vyāpajjati. See also byāpāda] making bad, doing harm: desire to injure, malevolence, ill -- will D i.71, 246; iii.70 sq., 226, 234; S i.99; ii.151; iv.343; A i.194, 280; ii.14, 210; iii.92, 231, 245; iv.437; Vbh 86, 363 sq., 391; Pug 17 sq.; Dhs 1137; Vism 7; DA i.211; VbhA 74, 118, 369. ˚anusaya M i.433. ˚dosa M iii.3. ˚dhātu M iii.62. ˚nīvaraṇa M ii.203. See under each affix. -- Cp. avyāpāda.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... li.1427689

with metta
Chris
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:04 pm

hi Cooran

The mistake is mine, I made the wrong assumption on the basis of the previous discussion and I mistook dosa as a synonym for aversion.
aversion  nibbidā (f.), virāga (m.), anālaya (m.), parammukhatā (m.), vimukhatā (m.)

I'm happy to concede that the terms are used synonymously if that is typically so. Probably the point I was trying to make is lost in the attempt to define the various pali terms used for ill will and aversion. What I was trying to point out, because it is the meditation forum, is that when you are practicing mindfulness you can develop awareness of some of the subtle differences in the way that the mind moves and changes. As an indication of a way to observe ill will in practice I was trying to point out the difference that one can observe between the minds attraction to pleasant sensation and aversion to unpleasant sensation when it is simply left to it's own devices and then what can follow from that when a more conscious and willful kind of involvement in the aversion or attraction develops.

I hoped that the observation of the one kind of process could be a means to observation of the other. The distinction I was pointing to was between the arising of a relatively unwilling aversion and a more willful involvement in an aversion. I apologize if I misused the terms. The OP was about ill will and I was hoping that I could point to a manner of observing it and some of the subtleties of it first hand. I had thought that what I was saying might be clearer if aversion could be taken in a sense to refer to a more autonomic kind of event whereas ill will could be taken in a similar sense to imply the additional involvement of a more conscious or willful quality. I'm not expert on pali definitions and I didn't take the time to look into those specifics. So if it is just definitions of terms the Op is after, then I offer my apologies for the digression into an exploration of some of what might be noted about ill will and aversion in practice.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Aerok » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:03 am

Vindictive
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