Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:'Rocks' are not dukkha. But the components that make up the concept 'rock' are all dukkha. Such as color, hardness, and so on.
retrofuturist wrote:Would you consider "color, hardness, and so on" to be dukkha even if there was no sentience in the universe capable of making contact with these qualities?
Virgo wrote:Hi Retro. Yes. I think all paramattha dhammas - save one - have these characteristics no matter there is a mind present to perceive them or not. The reason is that a purified mind (with panna) sees these characterstics about dhammas and that is the cause for the unwholesome tendencies such as self-view, hatred, and aversion, and so on to be removed. Panna will never see these paramatha dhammas as happy. That is why, even if there is no one present to observe these dhammas, they are still said to be that way. Why? Because as soon as conditions arise for a mind with panna to see any one of these dhammas, the "dukhaness" will be apparent to it. So "dukkha" was taught to be an inherent characteristic of all conditioned dhammas by Buddha when he taught the Abhidhamma.
If you'd stopped after the section I've bolded, your position might have been consistent, even though I would not have agreed with it personally.

However, you then spend the rest of your paragraph talking about panna, which is obviously a product of sentience, and thereby proceed to not answer the question at all, in the sense that your later sentences seem to negate the bolded one.
Virgo wrote:Nina Van Gorkom... She is an authority on Abhidhamma. So that should be sufficient.
Well, we'll be sure not to blanketly reject her perspective simply because she neither writes in Pali nor is over a thousand years old. ;)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

acinteyyo wrote: I mean since the ultimately real things are in fact dukkha, shouldn't then an imagination, an individual "dreaming up" be dukkha a fortiori or do you want to say that a concept doesn't even have the characteristic of being dukkha?
Correct.

Kevin
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:
Virgo wrote:Hi Retro. Yes. I think all paramattha dhammas - save one - have these characteristics no matter there is a mind present to perceive them or not. The reason is that a purified mind (with panna) sees these characterstics about dhammas and that is the cause for the unwholesome tendencies such as self-view, hatred, and aversion, and so on to be removed. Panna will never see these paramatha dhammas as happy. That is why, even if there is no one present to observe these dhammas, they are still said to be that way. Why? Because as soon as conditions arise for a mind with panna to see any one of these dhammas, the "dukhaness" will be apparent to it. So "dukkha" was taught to be an inherent characteristic of all conditioned dhammas by Buddha when he taught the Abhidhamma.
If you'd stopped after the section I've bolded, your position might have been consistent, even though I would not have agreed with it personally.
These other sentences go on to explain that if nama perceives any conditioned dhamma - wether it be nama or rupa - rightly, ie. with wisdom, that conditioned dhamma will be known to be dukkha. Only nama knows things. Rupa does not, and is not conscious. If this was a world devoid of nama, perhaps you could say arising conditioned dhamma were not inherently dukkha, since nothing could 'experience' them; however, since nama always arises since beningless time and will continue to, there is dhatu, element, that "knows" arising dhammas, wether with panna or without. If they are known with panna, which is Right Understanding, they will be seen as dukkha.
[/quote]
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:If this was a world devoid of nama, perhaps you could say arising conditioned dhamma were not inherently dukkha, since nothing could 'experience' them
Yes, that is the situation I'm speaking of. In such a situation, are arising conditioned dhamma inherently dukkha? You say "perhaps you could say" and I do say, yes... but I'm interested to know what you think.

It might seem hypothetical and irrelevant, but in terms of working out precisely how dhamma is understood in relation to sankhara (in a Venn diagram kind of way) I think it's important.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: I mean since the ultimately real things are in fact dukkha, shouldn't then an imagination, an individual "dreaming up" be dukkha a fortiori or do you want to say that a concept doesn't even have the characteristic of being dukkha?
Correct.
Is conceptual proliferation (papanca) dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:If this was a world devoid of nama, perhaps you could say arising conditioned dhamma were not inherently dukkha, since nothing could 'experience' them
Yes, that is the situation I'm speaking of. In such a situation, are arising conditioned dhamma inherently dukkha? You say "perhaps you could say" and I do say, yes... but I'm interested to know what you think.

It might seem hypothetical and irrelevant, but in terms of working out precisely how dhamma is understood in relation to sankhara (in a Venn diagram kind of way) I think it's important.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What's important retro is that this is not a world devoid of nama. Sentient beings are bound up with it. Therefore, we have to understand dukkha correctly.

kevin
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:
acinteyyo wrote: I mean since the ultimately real things are in fact dukkha, shouldn't then an imagination, an individual "dreaming up" be dukkha a fortiori or do you want to say that a concept doesn't even have the characteristic of being dukkha?
Correct.
Is conceptual proliferation (papanca) dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
The realities that cause proliferation are dukkha, which are mainly moha and ditthi. concepts are bound up with moha.

kevin
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

When your lost in concepts, you are lost in a conceptual dream. You do not see the reality that is appearing right now and know it's characteristic. Concepts hide the characteristics of conditioned dhammas.

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote: Therefore, we have to understand dukkha correctly.
Do you wish to give your take on "sabbe sankhara dukkha" then, in terms of its meaning, and how it is to be observed as truth?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote: Therefore, we have to understand dukkha correctly.
Do you wish to give your take on "sabbe sankhara dukkha" then, in terms of its meaning, and how it is to be observed as truth?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
That being so, I wonder why you've been introducing Abhidhamma concepts into the discussion, when by your admission, it's not relevant to the topic of "sabbe sankhara dukkha"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
As has been pointed out to you using the commentaries, that distinction is not valid.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
That being so, I wonder why you've been introducing Abhidhamma concepts into the discussion, when by your admission, it's not relevant to the topic of "sabbe sankhara dukkha"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
It's more than relevant.

Kevin
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
As has been pointed out to you using the commentaries, that distinction is not valid.
The Buddha uses concepts for those that can understand by means of concepts and ultimate style for those that can understand by means of ultimate style.

What isn't mentioned in that Commentary is that those with less wisdom need the ultimate style (more details). Since you have a lot of wisdom, no problem for you I guess. :)

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Sure Retro. I think it is sutta teaching (conventional) and not ultimate (abhidhamma).
As has been pointed out to you using the commentaries, that distinction is not valid.
The Buddha uses concepts for those that can understand by means of concepts and ultimate style for those that can understand by means of ultimate style.
Except the problem is with the "ulimate style" one is still using - quite clearly -conceptual structures.
What isn't mentioned in that Commentary is that those with less wisdom need the ultimate style (more details). Since you have a lot of wisdom, no problem for you I guess.
Since I and the other sutta-wallahs have a lot more wisdom than having to rely on the Abhidhamma, maybe you should listen to us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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