Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Virgo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,

Virgo wrote:The realities that cause proliferation are dukkha, which are mainly moha and ditthi. concepts are bound up with moha.

retrofuturist wrote:So proliferated concepts are formed by moha and ditta?

Virgo wrote:Concepts are a natural process for nama. When moha and ditthi are removed, however, there isn't cause for them to arise ever again after parinibbana.

retrofuturist wrote:So proliferated concepts are formed by nama?


Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi Retro. Concepts are a process of nama.
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:46 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kevin wrote:The Buddha uses concepts for those that can understand by means of concepts and ultimate style for those that can understand by means of ultimate style.
Except the problem is with the "ulimate style" one is still using - quite clearly -conceptual structures.

Except that ultimate teaching deals mainly with Vijjamana pannattis - the kind of concepts that point directly to realities. That conditions panna on the intellectual level, which can condition panna on the experiential level.
(If you are going to use highly techinical terminology that others might not know what it means, you need to provide a translation of it.) It is no more and no less a conceptuial structure than you would find in the suttas.

I wrote:
Virgo wrote:What isn't mentioned in that Commentary is that those with less wisdom need the ultimate style (more details). Since you have a lot of wisdom, no problem for you I guess.
Since I and the other sutta-wallahs have a lot more wisdom than having to really on the Abhidhamma, maybe you should listen to us.

Virgo wrote:I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.
So, you have, it seems, just claimed here that you are a Stream-winner, which I suppose that that means you know better than anyone else here who isn't a streanwinner, and on that basis we should listen to you as an authority?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:48 am

Greetings,

Virgo wrote:Concepts are a process of nama.


Since you clearly don't wish to answer the question directly, what do you mean by "process"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Virgo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Except that ultimate teaching deals mainly with Vijjamana pannattis - the kind of concepts that point directly to realities. That conditions panna on the intellectual level, which can condition panna on the experiential level.
(If you are going tro use highly techinical terminology that other might not know what it mean, you need to provide a translation of it.) It is no more and no less conceptuial structure than you would find in the suttas.


I defined the term.

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:55 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Except that ultimate teaching deals mainly with Vijjamana pannattis - the kind of concepts that point directly to realities. That conditions panna on the intellectual level, which can condition panna on the experiential level.
(If you are going tro use highly techinical terminology that other might not know what it mean, you need to provide a translation of it.) It is no more and no less conceptuial structure than you would find in the suttas.


I defined the term.

kevin

I suppose you did, but what is the translation of the two words?

Also, are you or are you not claiming of yourself here that you are a streamwinner when you say: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.? If not, what do you mean by this, given it is one of the defining characteristics of being a streamwinner?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:06 am

Hi Tilt, Kevin,
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I defined the term.
kevin

I suppose you did, but what is the translation of the two words?

See Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma VIII-31, page 327.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... &q&f=false
There vijjamanapannatti is translated as "a direct concept of the real".
As opposed to: avijjamanapannatti "a direct concept of the unreal", and various other permutations.

That section of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is very helpful.

Mike
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:21 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Tilt, Kevin,
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I defined the term.
kevin

I suppose you did, but what is the translation of the two words?

See Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma VIII-31, page 327.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... &q&f=false
There vijjamanapannatti is translated as "a direct concept of the real".
As opposed to: avijjamanapannatti "a direct concept of the unreal", and various other permutations.

That section of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is very helpful.

Mike

Concepts. We cannot but help work with conceptual structures.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Virgo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:Except that ultimate teaching deals mainly with Vijjamana pannattis - the kind of concepts that point directly to realities. That conditions panna on the intellectual level, which can condition panna on the experiential level.
(If you are going tro use highly techinical terminology that other might not know what it mean, you need to provide a translation of it.) It is no more and no less conceptuial structure than you would find in the suttas.

I defined the term.

kevin
I suppose you did, but what is the translation of the two words?


The translation is as Mike kindly posted above.

tiltibillings wrote:Also, are you or are you not claiming of yourself here that you are a streamwinner when you say: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.? If not, what do you mean by this, given it is one of the defining characteristics of being a streamwinner?


What? Nevermind that nonsense.

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:26 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Also, are you or are you not claiming of yourself here that you are a streamwinner when you say: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.? If not, what do you mean by this, given it is one of the defining characteristics of being a streamwinner?


What? Nevermind that nonsense.
You are not claiming to be a streamwinner? So, you do have bit of a doubt here or there about the Buddha's teachings? What did you mean when you said: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Virgo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Also, are you or are you not claiming of yourself here that you are a streamwinner when you say: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.? If not, what do you mean by this, given it is one of the defining characteristics of being a streamwinner?

What? Nevermind that nonsense.
You are not claiming to be a streamwinner? So, you do have bit of a doubt here or there about the Buddha's teachings? What did you mean when you said: having removed doubt in the Buddhas teachings.?
[/quote]
That's a good one Tilt.

Let's get back to topic shall we...

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:01 am

Virgo wrote:That's a good one tilt.

Let's get back to topic shall we...

Kevin
We can then take that as a "no" and that you still have something to learn from the wiser sutta-wallahs. All-righty then.

Back to the topic:
There vijjamanapannatti is translated as "a direct concept of the real".
And being concepts they are conditioned.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Virgo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:09 am

I don't even want to talk about this topic. Just read this and learn all about concepts: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm

I am going to bed.

Good day,

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:12 am

Virgo wrote:I don't even want to talk about this topic. Just read this and learn all about concepts: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm
Interesting, but it still does not change the fact that if it is a concept, it is conditioned, but then dhammas are, indeed, conditioned.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:17 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And being concepts they are conditioned.

(and in the absence of a response from Virgo...)

Concepts are sankhata (i.e. formed, fabricated, conditioned...)

Sabbe sankhara dukkha (i.e. all formations are dukkha)

"Self" is a formed concept too.

If we deliberately ignore and exclude concepts from our investigations, how will we ever know that... "All conditioned things are impermanent. All conditioned things are suffering. All dhammas (all things conditioned and unconditioned) are anatta"?

The answer is that we won't.

Concepts are if anything the most important things to investigate since that's where our false perception of "self" exists. It doesn't exist in rocks and colours. It exists in the prolific.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:If we deliberately ignore and exclude concepts from our investigations, how will we ever know that... "All conditioned things are impermanent. All conditioned things are suffering. All dhammas (all things conditioned and unconditioned) are anatta"?


Very nicely said, Retro!
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:00 am

Greetings, all,
I have an answer ... not a good one, perhaps, but it is *new* and it may be useful:
"Sabbe sankhara dukkha," is the complementary statement to, "Only nibbana can truly release us from suffering."

I'm serious, actually. It is the best I have been able to come up with since this thread started, even with the (often mixed and confusing :tongue: ) help of everyone who has contributed. Every time I try to put "Sabbe sankhara dukkha" into English, I run into complexities, caveats, exceptions, double negatives and plain contradictions; pointing to its complement avoids them all.
:meditate:
Kim
Last edited by Kim OHara on Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:12 am

Greetings Kim,

Speaking of complements, nibbana is asankhata, which means unformed.

According to Nyanatiloka Thera, "The Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned, Uncreated & Unconstructed is a name for Nibbana, the beyond of all becoming and conditionality." ( Source: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Asankhata )

It's precisely that which makes sankhara dukkha, which makes asankhata not-dukkha... namely, being formed or unformed

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:15 am

Virgo wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I mean since the ultimately real things are in fact dukkha, shouldn't then an imagination, an individual "dreaming up" be dukkha a fortiori or do you want to say that a concept doesn't even have the characteristic of being dukkha?

Correct.

Kevin

Sorry, I do not understand. What is correct, the first part or the second.
1. Shouldn't an imagination, an idividual "dreaming up" be dukkha?
or
2. Do you want to say that a concept doesn't even have the characteristic of being dukkha?
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And being concepts they are conditioned.

(and in the absence of a response from Virgo...)

Concepts are sankhata (i.e. formed, fabricated, conditioned...)

Sabbe sankhara dukkha (i.e. all formations are dukkha)

"Self" is a formed concept too.

If we deliberately ignore and exclude concepts from our investigations, how will we ever know that... "All conditioned things are impermanent. All conditioned things are suffering. All dhammas (all things conditioned and unconditioned) are anatta"?

The answer is that we won't.

Concepts are if anything the most important things to investigate since that's where our false perception of "self" exists. It doesn't exist in rocks and colours. It exists in the prolific.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Hi retro,

very well said! This is exactly the reason why I say "rocks" are dukkha because a "rock" is nothing but a formed concept, a sankhata dhamma, which other things also depending on it which makes it also a sankhara.
Seeing the truth -in this case- means penetrating the concept, which is cessation of the concept, this is cessation of dukkha.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.

:anjali:
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Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:Speaking of complements, nibbana is asankhata, which means unformed.
Nibbana is asankhata (unconditioned) because it is the no longer being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion in our experiences and actions.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
nibbana
.
-- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321

And we see:

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
asankhata
.
-- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

Clearly nibbana and asankhata are equivalent terms, synonyms. Nibbana is asankhata, “unconditioned,” because one's experience and actions are not conditioned by hatred, greed and ignorance.

According to Nyanatiloka Thera, "The Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned, Uncreated & Unconstructed is a name for Nibbana, the beyond of all becoming and conditionality." ( Source: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Asankhata )
This is not quite correct. The first sentence in the Udana 80 - the "un" passage - reads in Pali: "Atthi [There is] ajatam [unborn], abhutam [unproduced], akatam, [unmade], asankhatam [unconditioned]." It is important to note that ajatam, abhutam, etc are adjectives, not nouns. The noun of this sentence is implied. So we can ask, There is _what_? What is the implied noun? Nibbana, the experiential "state" of being free from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion in one's experience and actions.

To rewrite: It's precisely that which makes our experience liable dukkha, which makes our experience free of dukkha... namely, being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion or being free from greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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