Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby JackV » Thu May 27, 2010 9:30 am

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


I sort of understand what you're saying however if I am correct then I think you have phrased it a bit bluntly. I agree that people in the west or western mindstate are used to having, possessing, getting things. Everything has a use and we can get multiple uses out of everything (look waht happened to the humble phone), nearly everything to us is a commodity and as such when these people begin to meditate they try to "make something happen" or expect and will something to be. This will be unsuccesful.

The buddha, as quoted above, did put in effort, but I am not sure it could be considered the same type of effort. There is effort trying, grasping, wishing with Tanha for something to happen that will ultimatley remove the obkect that one is striving for and then there is effort which is the effort of sitting, watching and contemplating.
The buddha was obviously of the latter. I mean anyone who has never heard of Buddhism to sit down and watch, observe and with wisdom and clarity penetrate the veil of Maya is an absolute G.
One would assume with the above circumstance of the good man himself that he had nothing to strive towards as such, no thing to be possesed ahead (in a manner of speaking) like we do now. Just quiet, seeing, knowing, wisdom, truth. Reality is right now
Here where a thousand
captains swore grand conquest
Tall grasses their monument.
JackV
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:19 am

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Mon May 31, 2010 1:07 am

Clearly I have mistaken by jumping to conclusion.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:42 pm

I would say the main reason why people dont achieve Bodi is because of craving Bodhi and averting from other dhammas



I would say, from what ive been taught and understand, is for there to be complelte sati. Not wanting enlightnement and wanting to get rid of the defilements and dukkha but to be simply aware, since through awareness you arent rejecting or wanting but are noting and observing. When we note and observe we let go, let it be



Listen to the bhava tanha of your life: 'I want to practise meditation so I can become free from my pain. I want to become enlightened. I want to become a monk or a nun. I want to become enlightened as a lay person. I want to have a wife and children and a profession. I want to enjoy the sense world without having to give up anything and become an enlightened arahant too.'

When we get disillusioned with trying to become something, then there is the desire to get rid of things. So we contemplate vibhava tanha, the desire to get rid of: 'I want to get rid of my suffering. I want to get rid of my anger. I've got this anger and I want to get rid of it. I want to get rid of jealousy, fear and anxiety.' Notice this as a reflection on vibhava tanha. We are actually contemplating that within ourselves which wants to get rid of things; we are not trying to get rid of vibhava tanha. We are not taking a stand against the desire to get rid of things nor are we encouraging that desire. Instead, we are reflecting, 'It's like this; it feels like this to want to get rid of something; I've got to conquer my anger; I have to kill the Devil and get rid of my greed — then I will become ...' We can see from this train of thought that becoming and getting rid of are very much associated.

Bear in mind though that these three categories of kama tanha, bhava tanha and vibhava tanha are merely convenient ways of contemplating desire. They are not totally separate forms of desire but different aspects of it.

The second insight into the Second Noble Truth is: 'Desire should be let go of.' This is how letting go comes into our practice. You have an insight that desire should be let go of, but that insight is not a desire to let go of anything. If you are not very wise and are not really reflecting in your mind, you tend to follow the 'I want to get rid of, I want to let go of all my desires' — but this is just another desire. However, you can reflect upon it; you can see the desire to get rid of, the desire to become or the desire for sense pleasure. By understanding these three kinds of desire, you can let them go.

The Second Noble Truth does not ask you to think, 'I have a lot of sensual desires', or, 'I'm really ambitious. I'm really bhava tanha plus, plus, plus!' or, 'I'm a real nihilist. I just want out. I'm a real vibhava tanha fanatic. That's me.' The Second Noble Truth is not that. It is not about identifying with desires in any way; it's about recognising desire.



http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 05sec.html





Keep silently listening and watching as a way of life...then you begin to understand conditions. There's nothing to fear. There's nothing you have to get that you don't have, there's nothing to get rid of.


http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 03eta.html



metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Zom » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:04 pm

As far as I see it - the problem is not in too much effort, not in sati, not in wanting or not wanting enlightenment.
The answer is "the time has not yet come". You can't win enlightenment by spending hours in meditation. It doesn't work that way.
You have to accumulate enough numerous positive qualities, cleanse the mind of negative ones and have enough kamma fruits for this.

Ajahn Chah said that it doesn't matter when you will attain nibbana, because you can't force the result to come as soon as possible.
What you can do - is to cultivate Noble Path according to your present skills, kamma, virtues. And that's it. No "secret practices".

This sutta, though short, is very imporant for many meditators to understand:

"These are the three urgent duties of a farming householder. Now, that farming householder does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my crops spring up today, may the grains appear tomorrow, and may they ripen the next day.' But when the time has come, the farming householder's crops spring up, the grains appear, and they ripen.

"In the same way, there are these three urgent duties of a monk. Which three? The undertaking of heightened virtue, the undertaking of heightened mind, the undertaking of heightened discernment. These are the three urgent duties of a monk. Now, that monk does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my mind be released from fermentations through lack of clinging/sustenance today or tomorrow or the next day.' But when the time has come, his mind is released from fermentations through lack of clinging/sustenance.


Also fits this topic -)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Og8K81M6E
User avatar
Zom
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:59 pm

But couldnt you say that if there is still wanting and not wanting things then there wont be nibbana as there will be dukkha whereas if one has strong and constant sati then ignorance is dispelled and nibbana follows, since with sati one doesnt reject or grasp onto but simply observes and so insight arises
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:10 pm

Mindfulness is always intentional- how can a person be mindful without wanting to be mindful? Canda -a desire for the path, , the desire for mindfulness, is something to be developed. It is a desire for the ending of desire- and it works. Try not having any urge at all to get to nibbana- that is possibly even worse than extreme cliniging and craving for it IMO because the person who wants it will do/go where he has to get it done, and may learn about the right level of effort required. The person who has no desire for nibbana is simply going to drift in the odd bit of pleasantness created by samadhi. Often this is all that is 'sold' in the west, because that is all that can be afforded due to various reason. The Buddha said that it is better to have niramisa dukkha ('suffering arising from seeing not having progressed in the dhamma') than suffering arising from not getting sensual things. He also said that it is better to cry frustrated as monk than to give up the robes (or something along those lines). These statements are about striving for the practice. He has praised stream entry many times, quite intentionally giving rise to craving for it in the monks listening to it. He also mentioned putting in the right amount of effort- not too little, not too much (like the strings on a stringed instruments have to be tightened just the right amount). This kind of teaching (just relax, take it easy) is a teaching for those who are trying too hard (the monk who did walking meditation until his feet bled), rather than those of us who are simply doing too little and looking for any excuse to do even less.

Try trying less and see where it takes you. Just be mindful to review your practice a few years down the line to see if you are any closer to nibbana.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:32 pm

Mindfulness is always intentional-



You dont think "I will be aware" you simply are aware


If it was intentional then we would have to constantly think "be aware be aware" but we dont, every person has awareness as its a natural condition of the mind



When there is sati of breath you recognise not think/intend as intention always involves some level of thinking




Try trying less and see where it takes you. Just be mindful to review your practice a few years down the line to see if you are any closer to nibbana.



Nibbana is the abscene of the fires of greed hatred and delusion. What is there when there is no dukkha


When one is truly mindful one is coming from knowing and not not knowing (ignorance)

When one is mindful there is no wanting or averting so there is no craving and so no dukkha


Dispassion is acceptance and awareness of things as they are, not creating anything, letting go of the aversion to what is ugly or unpleasant. So letting go is not a trick phrase coined as a way of dismissing things, but it is a deep insight into the nature of things. Letting go therefore is being able to bear with something unpleasant and not being caught up with anger and aversion. Dispassion is not depression.



http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 23lgd.html

Ajahn Sumedho




Using the mind to look for reality is delusion. Not using the mind to took for reality is awareness

Buddha means awareness, the awareness of body and mind that prevents evil from arising in either


http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... DHARMA.htm

Bodhidharma


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Zom » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:43 pm

But couldnt you say that if there is still wanting and not wanting things then there wont be nibbana


I don't remember the nubmer of that sutta - but there Buddha says, that it doesn't matter if a practitioner desires to get nibbana or he doesn't - if the factors of the Path are developed - he will get result for sure in both cases.
User avatar
Zom
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:47 pm

I find this teaching quite helpful


There is this Noble Truth of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated by fully understanding suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth has been penetrated by fully understanding suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

The First Noble Truth with its three aspects is: "There is suffering, dukkha. Dukkha should be understood. Dukkha has been understood."



There is this Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering:such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering....

This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by abandoning the origin of suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

The Second Noble Truth with its three aspects is: ‘There is the origin of suffering, which is attachment to desire. Desire should be let go of. Desire has been let go of




There is this Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by realising the Cessation of Suffering....

This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by realising the Cessation of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

The Third Noble Truth with its three aspects is: ‘There is the cessation of suffering, of dukkha. The cessation of dukkha should be realised. The cessation of dukkha has been realised.’


...


We reflect as we see suffering; as we see the nature of desire; as we recognise that attachment to desire is suffering. These insights can only come through reflection; they cannot come through belief. You cannot make yourself believe or realise an insight as a wilful act; through really contemplating and pondering these truths, the insights come to you. They come only through the mind being open and receptive to the teaching - blind belief is certainly not advised or expected of anyone. Instead, the mind should be willing to be receptive, pondering and considering.

This mental state is very important - it is the way out of suffering. It is not the mind which has fixed views and prejudices and thinks it knows it all or which just takes what other people say as being the truth. It is the mind that is open to these Four Noble Truths and can reflect upon something that we can see within our own mind




There is this Noble Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before....

This Noble Truth must be penetrated to by cultivating the Path....

This Noble Truth has been penetrated to by cultivating the Path: such was the vision, insight, wisdom, knowing and light that arose in me about things not heard before.

[Samyutta Nikaya LVI, 11]

The Fourth Noble Truth, like the first three, has three aspects. The first aspect is: ‘There is the Eightfold Path, the atthangika magga - the way out of suffering.’ It is also called the ariya magga, the Ariyan or Noble Path. The second aspect is: ‘This path should be developed.’ The final insight into arahantship is: ‘This path has been fully developed



http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm




Reflection via mindfulness and clear comprehension, helped to be developed via the noble eightfold path, leads to nibbana


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:49 pm

Zom wrote:
But couldnt you say that if there is still wanting and not wanting things then there wont be nibbana


I don't remember the nubmer of that sutta - but there Buddha says, that it doesn't matter if a practitioner desires to get nibbana or he doesn't - if the factors of the Path are developed - he will get result for sure in both cases.




True because when there factors of the path are developed then one has mindulness and clear comprehension and so has strong Sati. Thus there is observation and not attraction or repulsion to dhammas, therefore there is knowledge not ignorance and so there is cessation of dukkha


However if one wants nibbana then this is craving to become, which also involves aversion from something else (since you cant have want without not-wanting) and so ignorance is there and dukkha will arise. One should let go. When there is letting go there is no getting rid of or holding onto but simply letting dhammas arise and cease


If there is a bee sting and there is aversion then there is dukkha. However if ones just observes the sensation with mindfulness then one is letting it go to cessation without dukkha being there. One is seeing it as it is with wisdom and not ignorance thus one is free from dukkha


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby bodom » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:05 pm

At S V 272, Ananda countered the proposal that to overcome desire using desire would be a task without end with the argument that the desire for realization will automatically subside once realization is gained. Similarly, according to A 11 145, it is on the basis of "craving" (for the destruction of the influxes) that craving (in general) will be overcome. Also Sn 365, where the Buddha spoke approvingly of someone longing to attain nibbana. The importance of "desire" as an aspect of the path leading to realization is also exemplified in the canonical presentation of the four roads to power (iddhipadda), one of which is desire (chanda).

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4579
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:09 pm

bodom wrote:At S V 272, Ananda countered the proposal that to overcome desire using desire would be a task without end with the argument that the desire for realization will automatically subside once realization is gained. Similarly, according to A 11 145, it is on the basis of "craving" (for the destruction of the influxes) that craving (in general) will be overcome. Also Sn 365, where the Buddha spoke approvingly of someone longing to attain nibbana. The importance of "desire" as an aspect of the path leading to realization is also exemplified in the canonical presentation of the four roads to power (iddhipadda), one of which is desire (chanda).

:anjali:




Perhaps until there is an understanding that craving to become enlightened should be let go of as well?


One should be aware of dukkha, cause, cessation and path to cessation. This is done via a observation and reflection which Sati is. However if one is wanting nibbana then one isnt oberving and reflecting so there will be dukkha and no nibbana. Instead be aware of the craving for nibbana, see it as it is


When one is fully mindful then one is aware of dukkha

when one is aware of dukkha they are also aware of cause, cessation and path at the same time and so there is penetration into the four noble truths


bhikkhus one who sees dukkha also sees the origin of dukkha, also sees the cessation of dukkha, also sees the way leading to the cessation of dukkha


one who sees the origin of dukkha also sees dukkha, also sees the cessation of dukkha, also sees the way leading to the cessation of dukkha

one who sees the cessation of dukkha also sees dukkha, also sees the origin of dukkha, also sees the way leading to the cessation of dukkha

one who sees the way leading to the cessation of dukkha also sees dukkha, also sees the origin of dukkha, also sees the cessation of dukkha



SM


When one is aware one sees dukkha, origin, cessation and path


when one isnt aware then one does not see dukkha, origin, cessation and path


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Zom » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:33 pm

One should be aware of dukkha, cause, cessation and path to cessation. This is done via a observation and reflection which Sati is. However if one is wanting nibbana then one isnt oberving and reflecting so there will be dukkha and no nibbana.


Such approach is too narrow. Sati - is only one of numerous factors that you need to develop to gain nibbana.
User avatar
Zom
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:18 pm

bodom wrote:At S V 272, Ananda countered the proposal that to overcome desire using desire would be a task without end with the argument that the desire for realization will automatically subside once realization is gained. Similarly, according to A 11 145, it is on the basis of "craving" (for the destruction of the influxes) that craving (in general) will be overcome. Also Sn 365, where the Buddha spoke approvingly of someone longing to attain nibbana. The importance of "desire" as an aspect of the path leading to realization is also exemplified in the canonical presentation of the four roads to power (iddhipadda), one of which is desire (chanda).

:anjali:



You are absolutely right. Without wish for nibbana, one will simply not practice, not learn, etc, and will drift in the direction of the strongest desire (usually sensual desires).

There is also a difference between tanha and chanda. Arahants still have chanda, they can plan things.

Also, lets not forget that even Anagamis have conceit and feeling of "I AM". Desire is totally uprooted at Arhatship. So saying that "don't desire anything, including Nibbana" for a worldling can really be too early and dangerous bit of advise.


IMHO.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2808
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:24 pm

Zom wrote:
One should be aware of dukkha, cause, cessation and path to cessation. This is done via a observation and reflection which Sati is. However if one is wanting nibbana then one isnt oberving and reflecting so there will be dukkha and no nibbana.


Such approach is too narrow. Sati - is only one of numerous factors that you need to develop to gain nibbana.




From my understanding all the factors are geared towards having strong sati as this is what leads to nibbana, hence the Buddhas name. Buddha meaning the one who knows or the one who is fully aware, full mindfulness and clear comprehension


of course this is just what works for me and is from my own practice and what ive learnt from teachers, not trying to be absolutist here


metta
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3349
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby PeterB » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:27 pm

You simply have no way of knowing Alex how those who practice without a wish or desire for Nibbana fare.
You are simply imagining what it would be like for YOU to practice without such a wish. You have no way of knowing to what degree it might or might not apply to others. I know a number of people who practice Buddhist meditation without regard to nibbana, and who have practised dutifully and with positive results, daily for decades , and who do not drift into empty sensuality.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Previous

Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests