Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:33 pm

bodom wrote:
smokey wrote:I am just not good at expressing myself.


I am reading you loud and clear. No worries. :smile:

:anjali:


:toast:
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby smokey » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:34 pm

acinteyyo wrote:You're not completely off the track with your suggestion smokey. The Buddha taught the "middle way", when it comes to effort it has to be the right amount, it must be in balance with all the supporting factors and actual circumstances. Too much effort won't be good and when it's not enough effort it's also not good. This applies to the whole eightfold path.
best wishes, acinteyyo


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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby retrofuturist » Sat May 01, 2010 12:36 am

Greetings,

See also...

AN 6.55: Sona Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

... an extract of which is here...

"Now what do you think, Sona. Before, when you were a house-dweller, were you skilled at playing the vina?"

"Yes, lord."

"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too taut, was your vina in tune & playable?"

"No, lord."

"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were too loose, was your vina in tune & playable?"

"No, lord."

"And what do you think: when the strings of your vina were neither too taut nor too loose, but tuned1 to be right on pitch, was your vina in tune & playable?"

"Yes, lord."

"In the same way, Sona, over-aroused persistence leads to restlessness, overly slack persistence leads to laziness. Thus you should determine the right pitch for your persistence, attune the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there pick up your theme."


Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat May 01, 2010 1:27 am

seems to me that most people try harder at making the dhamma fit into their lives and into what they want it to be than they are trying to hard in meditation or making their lives fit the dhamma.
Last edited by jcsuperstar on Sat May 01, 2010 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Annapurna » Sat May 01, 2010 7:24 am

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


I understand, yes. To stick to Taoist concepts:

The western world tends to lean towards the Yang, the male principle.

Just look at how many people are always active, and struggle for more speed, more height, even in their leisure time they can't sit still and go out and do sports, and so forth.

In their vacations, they also don't think of slowing down and relaxing, but go on 'survival trips in the Himalaya'.

The Yang principle is overactive and overrated, at the expense of the Yin principle:

Rest, contemplation, meditation, and so forth.

It feels unusual for most people to stop racing and to calm down, start sitting and start looking inside instead of chasing their tails in the world.

I'm quite a busy bee myself, and so I use the computer to give me my regular sitting times, thinking about stuff, from which I then move on to contemplation a lot...

with metta,

Anna
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Dan74 » Sat May 01, 2010 12:27 pm

Ajahn Brahm often gives a similar suggestion. In fact when I heard him at Monash Uni last year he took his water bottle out and comparing holding it to the mind in meditation and the fruitless exertion it produces, he then put it down.

On another occasion, he told a story of being besieged by sexual fantasies while doing solitary meditation in Thai jungle. They left him when he decided to give his mind an hour of free reign.

To me what this is all getting at is that fighting with your mind is not productive. Trying to force it to do this or that is not productive. But learning to work with it, learning about it, observing and gentling it, that's productive.

Of course, there is no point giving yourself a hard time, gritting your teeth, getting all hot under the collar, etc. There is also no point exhausting yourself to the point of a breakdown.

Serious practice can be just that - serious practice (and I doubt many of us here suffer from overdoing it, I for one, should be doing more).

As for wu-wei, I guess it is an attitude akin to the one expressed by Chinese and Japanese traditional artists. Their ink paintings look so simple, so effortless and indeed they are, but this "effortlessness" came about as a result of many years of extremely hard work. If someone paints effortlessly on the first day, it'll just be a mess. Same with the mind.
_/|\_
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby Khemadhammo Bhikkhu » Thu May 06, 2010 10:39 am

jcsuperstar wrote:seems to me that most people try harder at making the dhamma fit into their lives and into what they want it to be than they are trying to hard in meditation or making their lives fit the dhamma.


Exactly!
He stopped and called out to the Blessed One: "Stop, recluse! Stop, recluse!"
"I have stopped, Angulimāla, you stop too."
(M ii.100)
http://www.meditationthai.org
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Wed May 19, 2010 9:54 pm

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


The way to stop doing that. Make meditation a habit - do it all the time, then you stop putting in too much effort because you're just doing what you're used to doing if you see what I mean.

Efforts a funny thing. When I got to a certain point I realised that I had to actually stop putting in any direct effort at all. Instead, If I realised that more effort needed to be put in I just "told" my mind to put in more effort (into whatever thing needed to be done) and it would do it by itself.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 2:42 pm

smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


I think the real reason is that today people meditate in accordance with the Visuddhimagga and not in accordance with the Suttas.
Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
With metta,
Steve.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 3:45 pm

In fact - if you develop satipatthana by (what I think are) the instructions of the Buddha sammatha starts automatically...

Firstly do the normal mindfulness noting (this I think is the true definition of vitakka (I take all translations of the commentaries with a pinch of salt - they just don't tie up with the suttas)) or whatever.
Then when mindfulness is continuous drop the noting.
Now, once in a while, race awareness into the object of mindfulness and immediately categories it's qualities (this cannot be done verbally as you (after you've practised and developed the categories in your head) simultaneously fit it into many different categories). This I think is the true definition of of vicara). For whoever knows what I'm talking about (which might be a few of you since you're buddhists (sorry - stereotype)), the effect is like giving the object an immediate burst of LSD.
Now - find the right amount of vicara. Not to much (over-application is a hinderance - LSD would be definite overapplication) and not to little (under-application is a hinderance).
When you have the right amount you will automatically start going into (background) sammatha on a primary object. If you have been doing breath meditation the object will be breath, otherwise you might start humming a riff over and over or whatever. Do not apply the vipassana to the primary object or you will destroy the sammatha.

Peace,
Steve :-)
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 20, 2010 3:49 pm

whitewedding wrote:
smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


I think the real reason is that today people meditate in accordance with the Visuddhimagga and not in accordance with the Suttas.
Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
With metta,
Steve.
And you are speaking from years of direct experience, having read both the suttas and the Visuddhimagga in their original Pali, doing the various practices outlined in each under the guidance of a realized teacher?

And you are distinguishing "samatha jhana" (you would be more credible of you spelled samatha correctly) from "vipassana jhana" from the "sutta jhana" how?

Blanket statements such as you just made here are hard to take seriously.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:00 pm

In this way, what I think are the factors of awakening arise just how the buddha says they do (although you need to be in sammatha quite a bit to see them).
From mindfulness arises investigation: Well - this is what I've just talked about above (applying the vicara).
From investigation arises energy: Each new vicara gives to a tremendous burst of energy.
From energy arises joy: No further explanation needed.
From joy arise tranquility: Ditto.
From tranquility arises concentration: You sink into the object of sammatha.
From concentration arises equinimity: The sammatha makes the sensations of the sati shine (negative of positive - all shine up bright).

The buddha says that the factors increase to give "the release of the mind". It is clear from the sutta about Sarriputta that by "release of the mind" the buddha means Jhana - not Nibbana (like the commentaries make it out to be).

Peace and metta,
Steve.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:17 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:
smokey wrote:The answer is quite simple. People are putting too much effort while meditating. And I will just say wu-wei. Hope some of you contemplatives will understand.


I think the real reason is that today people meditate in accordance with the Visuddhimagga and not in accordance with the Suttas.
Buddha's Jhana is clearly not the same thing as the Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha gives a very detailed description of how to get to his Jhanas in the suttas - the way to get there is nothing like the way to get to Visuddhimagga's Jhana.
Buddha's Jhana is neither sammatha Jhana nor vipassana Jhana - It is both. And he says that you are unlikely to reach Nibbana unless you have both simultaneously.
With metta,
Steve.
And you are speaking from years of direct experience, having read both the suttas and the Visuddhimagga in their original Pali, doing the various practices outlined in each under the guidance of a realized teacher?

And you are distinguishing "samatha jhana" (you would be more credible of you spelled samatha correctly) from "vipassana jhana" from the "sutta jhana" how?

Blanket statements such as you just made here are hard to take seriously.


"More credible if I spelt samatha correctly" - WTF! Jesus man - I'm not attacking you - you don't have to attack me back (with all your so called Sila as well).

"Hard to take seriously" - I think I've been giving a serious description of a meditation technique here.

What do you mean by blanket statements as well?

Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?

Well - I guess by samatha jhana I mean the Jhanas of the Visuddhimagga and I guess by vipassana jhana I mean what U Pandita talks of.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 20, 2010 4:18 pm

whitewedding wrote:In this way, what I think are the factors of awakening arise just how the buddha says they do (although you need to be in sammatha quite a bit to see them).
From mindfulness arises investigation: Well - this is what I've just talked about above (applying the vicara).
From investigation arises energy: Each new vicara gives to a tremendous burst of energy.
From energy arises joy: No further explanation needed.
From joy arise tranquility: Ditto.
From tranquility arises concentration: You sink into the object of sammatha.
From concentration arises equinimity: The sammatha makes the sensations of the sati shine (negative of positive - all shine up bright).

The buddha says that the factors increase to give "the release of the mind". It is clear from the sutta about Sarriputta that by "release of the mind" the buddha means Jhana - not Nibbana (like the commentaries make it out to be).

Peace and metta,
Steve.

You really have not answered my questions in the above msg, which you obviously really did not read very carefully.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:26 pm

Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 20, 2010 4:31 pm

whitewedding wrote:Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
So, based upon your own experience (which is based upon what?) you have cobbled together the truly true understanding of the Buddha's teachings - is that what you are saying?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:32 pm

But I expect that these guys have...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lQ_Z ... st&f=false
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 20, 2010 4:34 pm

whitewedding wrote:
Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?
Probably not, given that it does not make a lot of sense.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:38 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:Oh sorry - I miss read it - I thought you were saying you had done all this.

No - I haven't had guidance from a realised teacher (which I think is probably a very good thing - too many lectures cloud your mind). But I have been meditating virtually all the time for the last year or so (and had been meditating regularly before that).
And no I haven't read ... in original Pali (but still the translation contradict so I don't know if that would help). That's why I don't actually take the translations into account and piece together the general framework instead.
So, based upon your own experience (which is based upon what?) you have cobbled together the truly true understanding of the Buddha's teachings - is that what you are saying?


Mate - why do you have to be sending me this shit. You see - the difference between me and you is that I don't say this stuff to people and that is why I will progress much further in meditation than you ever will.

No - I haven't got a "totally true understanding" but am learning more each day. I simply play around with my technique and compare it with the suttas. You see - I have experiences coming automatically which agree with the experiences the buddha describes (like what I think (notice I have always said "I think")) are the factors of awakening. These are the signs to me that I am on the right path.

Steve.
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Re: Here is the answer why do people today do not achieve Bodhi

Postby whitewedding » Thu May 20, 2010 4:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
whitewedding wrote:
Do you actually have any productive comments to make about my technique?
Probably not, given that it does not make a lot of sense.


What are you talking about - in what way doesn't it make sense?

Convo over mate - I've got better things to do with my time than read all the insulting comments your sending me.
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