Dependent Origination

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Kenshou » Fri May 21, 2010 3:50 am

Hey now, don't assume that I agree. The suttas are one thing, Daniel Ingram is quite another. I'm not a fan of his really, but that's just my stance.

I'm glad that you've found an outside source. I think I understand better now what you're talking about, the process of mental impressions and reactions. I don't have Daniels book in print, but if possible could you point out that relevant bit in the online version so that I could see it in context?

I think the core of the breakdown in communication is your use of the terms nimitta and citta. As http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/citta.htm says, citta and vinnana (consciousness) can be synonyms sometimes, so I can't accuse you of misusing that. It's possible that we've been using it differently.

I have been using citta to mean the general state of the mind. I think you've been using it differently, but I'm still not clear exactly what meaning you intend. If you could find a definition that suits you and show me, I might get a better idea. If we explicitly define our terms, it might clear up some of the confusion.

As for nimitta, take a look at the definitions here and tell me if one fits what you intend your use to signify: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nimitta.htm As far as I can tell, your usage doesn't really match up, but you can clarify if you want.

And as for nama: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/naama.htm

This term is generally used as a collective name for the 4 mental groups (arūpino khandha), viz.

feeling (vedanā),
perception (saññā),
mental formations (sankhāra) and
consciousness (viññāna).


This matches what I had previously said. Nama =/= nimitta =/= citta. EDIT: Actually, for practical purposes I think it is okay for us to equate nama and citta. I tend to understand citta as more of the overall general flavour of the mind, this is how the satipatthana sutta uses it I believe (someone correct me it not), and nama refers more specifically to the various processes of the mind and not the whole. But they're similar enough that we can call them the same. The real issue is, that nimitta does not correspond to either of them. Your assertion that nimitta equals nama doesn't hold up as far as I can tell.
Last edited by Kenshou on Fri May 21, 2010 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Anicca » Fri May 21, 2010 3:55 am

Greetings!

Help me out here -
How come when searching Daniel's book nimmita & citta return 0 finds? How does he spell them in the book?

Metta
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Kenshou » Fri May 21, 2010 3:58 am

I haven't read it for awhile, but as far as I can recall, he doesn't use them at all.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Anicca » Fri May 21, 2010 3:59 am

Kenshou wrote:I haven't read it for awhile, but as far as I can recall, he doesn't use them at all.

:thanks:
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Ben » Fri May 21, 2010 4:00 am

I wouldn't worry about Anicca.

I highly recommend Venerable Analayo's Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
Its brilliant.
metta

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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Anicca » Fri May 21, 2010 4:02 am

Ben wrote:I wouldn't worry about Anicca.

I highly recommend Venerable Analayo's Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
Its brilliant.
metta

Ben

:thanks:
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby tiltbillings » Fri May 21, 2010 4:05 am

Kenshou wrote:I continue to disagree with your interpretation. I think you're making it all a hell of a lot more complicated than it needs to be, adding things that don't need to be added.

But anyway, if it works for you, then alright. That's all I can say.
A lot of what is being described is naught more than mental constructions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby whitewedding » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Kenshou wrote:I continue to disagree with your interpretation. I think you're making it all a hell of a lot more complicated than it needs to be, adding things that don't need to be added.

But anyway, if it works for you, then alright. That's all I can say.
A lot of what is being described is naught more than mental constructions.


Your always fast on the criticism aren't you tiltbillings - even though you don't have the faintest idea what is going on in my head. Sure - everything in life is a mental construction isn't it - so I don't really get your point mate.
But I don't care if they are or aren't - because I actively try and avoid this stuff now - by not taking any of your "advice" and going on and continuing meditating on what I call citta and what I call nimmita I managed to work out how to detach "citta" from "nimmita". The natural result of this is beyond imagination - if I had to sum it up in 2 words they would be "boundless" and "space".
Oh - and I can guess what your gonna say next - something along the lines of "that's not the real boundless space" (even though you haven't a clue what my experiences are like) - but WTF - it's still one hell of a liberating place to go into!

Cheers for all the lovely chats man!
Steve.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby whitewedding » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:06 pm

Anicca wrote:Greetings!

Help me out here -
How come when searching Daniel's book nimmita & citta return 0 finds? How does he spell them in the book?

Metta


He used the words "crude mental image" and "conciousness" (they're in the quote I gave). If you like I can use these instead - makes no difference to me!
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby whitewedding » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:10 pm

Ben wrote:I wouldn't worry about Anicca.

I highly recommend Venerable Analayo's Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
Its brilliant.
metta

Ben


Hehe - cheers man!
Yeah - I'll check it out - thanks.
With metta,

Steve :-)
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby whitewedding » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:23 pm

Kenshou wrote:Hey now, don't assume that I agree. The suttas are one thing, Daniel Ingram is quite another. I'm not a fan of his really, but that's just my stance.

I'm glad that you've found an outside source. I think I understand better now what you're talking about, the process of mental impressions and reactions. I don't have Daniels book in print, but if possible could you point out that relevant bit in the online version so that I could see it in context?

I think the core of the breakdown in communication is your use of the terms nimitta and citta. As http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/citta.htm says, citta and vinnana (consciousness) can be synonyms sometimes, so I can't accuse you of misusing that. It's possible that we've been using it differently.

I have been using citta to mean the general state of the mind. I think you've been using it differently, but I'm still not clear exactly what meaning you intend. If you could find a definition that suits you and show me, I might get a better idea. If we explicitly define our terms, it might clear up some of the confusion.

As for nimitta, take a look at the definitions here and tell me if one fits what you intend your use to signify: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nimitta.htm As far as I can tell, your usage doesn't really match up, but you can clarify if you want.

And as for nama: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/naama.htm

This term is generally used as a collective name for the 4 mental groups (arūpino khandha), viz.

feeling (vedanā),
perception (saññā),
mental formations (sankhāra) and
consciousness (viññāna).


This matches what I had previously said. Nama =/= nimitta =/= citta. EDIT: Actually, for practical purposes I think it is okay for us to equate nama and citta. I tend to understand citta as more of the overall general flavour of the mind, this is how the satipatthana sutta uses it I believe (someone correct me it not), and nama refers more specifically to the various processes of the mind and not the whole. But they're similar enough that we can call them the same. The real issue is, that nimitta does not correspond to either of them. Your assertion that nimitta equals nama doesn't hold up as far as I can tell.



Yeah - I agree with you. I've been using the word "nimmita" for these symbols just because they are "signs" which appear in meditation. But - since there not sammatha things it might be the wrong word to use.
Well - from the looks of the satipatthana sutta it seems as though they do mean that citta is the state of mind (but since this is a load of feelings and perceptions it would then surely be under feelings and perceptions). However - state of mind is reflected in nimmita - they become more beautiful as the mind brightens so it's possible that they are talking about this.
What I'm calling citta (which might not be what buddhism means by citta - I agree) is waves of spacial awareness. I see this more clearly now I've detached it from the "nimmita". I guess this would hence come under "perception" and not citta. However - "boundless conciousness" (I don't know if this is translated from "citta" but I guess it is) is a subtle part of "boundlesss space" so I'm guess citta is very much linked to spacial awareness.

The quote from the book is in the details of the first nana (mind and body).

Take care,
Steve :-)
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