concentration without object

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Re: concentration without object

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 29, 2010 8:21 am

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

He says that it is not defined further in the Nikyas but that it's placement after the formless attainments suggests it is a samadhi qualitatively different from those attained in samatha meditation. In SN41:7 there is a "signless liberation of the mind", animitta cetovimutti. In SN43:4 the signless concentration (animitta samadhi is called the path leading to the unconditioned:
... "And what, Bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? The emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the undirected concentration..."

These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.

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Re: concentration without object

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 29, 2010 8:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

. . .

These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.
Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: concentration without object

Postby PeterB » Sat May 29, 2010 8:48 am

Precisely. No luminosity somehow pours forth and recognises itself. Things are simply seen as lacking essence. No roll of drums. No devas showering jewels. Just the quiet of projections withdrawn.
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Re: concentration without object

Postby Shonin » Sat May 29, 2010 8:51 am

Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.
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Re: concentration without object

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 29, 2010 9:06 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:heart and mind are sometimes interchangeable yes

Hmm, in that case, i can hardly think of a better description of some huatou or koan practice than the linked doc.
"And then, friends, the Blessed One came to me by his powers[6] and said: 'Moggallaana, Moggallaana, Brahman,[7] do not slacken off in the signless concentration, make your mind steady, make the mind one-pointed, concentrate your mind in the signless concentration!'

I guess the direct sudden path is not new if the buddha was teaching a non developmental path even then.

I'm not sure what is meant by a "non developmental path". Note that according to the previous Suttas Moggallaana had already attained all the jhanas and formless attainments...

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Re: concentration without object

Postby PeterB » Sat May 29, 2010 9:22 am

Shonin wrote:Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.

Is it...local ? we'll have no strange items here. This is a local shop for local people.*

*with apologies to non Brits.
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Re: concentration without object

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 29, 2010 9:29 am

PeterB wrote:
Shonin wrote:Yep. Shikantaza, definitely shikantaza.

Is it...local ? we'll have no strange items here. This is a local shop for local people.*

*with apologies to non Brits.

http://www.pachyderme.net/
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: concentration without object

Postby Shonin » Sat May 29, 2010 9:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.


'Without object' means without object of concentration - except in so far as reality as it is right now is an object of concentration. Awareness is not trained on the breath or any other specific phenomenon, rather it is open and allows phenomena to come and go without judgement, clinging or rejection. It is a very good insight and concentration practice in my experience, whatever branch of Buddhism you follow and whatever you call it.
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Re: concentration without object

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 29, 2010 9:45 am

Shonin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Very much and it suggests that the mind is not somehow without object(s); rather, there is no longer an assumption of permanence in what is seen/experienced.


'Without object' means without object of concentration - except in so far as reality as it is right now is an object of concentration.
I would say mind without a singular object.


Awareness is not trained on the breath or any other specific phenomenon, rather it is open and allows phenomena to come and go without judgement, clinging or rejection. It is a very good insight and concentration practice in my experience, whatever branch of Buddhism you follow and whatever you call it.
It takes work to get that. Retreats - the longer the better - are a big help.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: concentration without object

Postby bodom » Sat May 29, 2010 3:51 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:in zen (soto-shu) we were taught not to have no thoughts, but rather to just not attach to thoughts, we called it "opening the hand of thought". this is essentially the same as some vipassana meditation techniques i've seen taught in some of the thai traditions. i wouldn't pay too much thought to anything a karate teacher says.
:anjali:


Kosho Uchiyama! Opening the Hand of Thought is my favorite book on Zen.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: concentration without object

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:40 pm

Animitta ceto vimutti. ceto vimutti refers to liberation of the mind. The mind is liberated from defilements, but no ceto vimutti is entirely a buddhist liberation as that requires panna vimutti- liberation by insight along side it.

Animitta (singnless), Appanihita (desireless), Sunnata (emptiness) ceto vimutti are considered the three doorways to nibbana- thereby making them very high attainments -to be reached by non-returners (anagamins). This is not about the garden variety bare awareness accessible to beginners.

Animitta is said to be reached by the development of the perception of impermanance
Appanihita is said to be reached by the development of the perception of unsatisfactoriness
Sunnata is said to be reached by the development of the perception of non-self.

These seems to be states both infused with samatha/jhanic samadhi levels and vipassana insight knowledges to extremely refined levels.

with metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: concentration without object

Postby Freawaru » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:12 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi translates animitta cetosamadi as "signless concentration of the mind".

He says that the commentary interprets it as: "Insight concentration, which occurs when one has abandoned the sign of permanence, etc."

He says that it is not defined further in the Nikyas but that it's placement after the formless attainments suggests it is a samadhi qualitatively different from those attained in samatha meditation. In SN41:7 there is a "signless liberation of the mind", animitta cetovimutti. In SN43:4 the signless concentration (animitta samadhi is called the path leading to the unconditioned:
... "And what, Bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? The emptiness concentration, the signless concentration, the undirected concentration..."

These passages connected with liberation do suggest that it has to do with insight.

Mike


Hi Mike and All,

what is known about the difference between emptiness concentration, signless concentration, and undirected concentration? Considering the names all three could be "concentration without an object" cause sunnata is no object (isn't even a dhamma if I recall correctly) and undirected sounds rather objectless to me, too.
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Re: concentration without object

Postby Shonin » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:16 pm

I read these simply as three descriptions of the same practice.
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