Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta

Are you referring to shikantaza?

Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

bodom wrote:Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So if I understand it correctly, Moggallana attained nibbana while in this state?

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

Well, it is not to try to have no thoughts; it is, rather, not to be fixed on any one thing. You cannot have concentration or consciousness with an object, but the object can changed very, very rapidly. It is what is called moment-to-moment concentration or bare attention in vipassana practice.

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.

No, it isn't about having no thoughts. It is remaining anchored in the reality of the present moment, yet with an open, allowing awareness rather than a narrow, focussed one. Phenomena (including thoughts) are allowed to appear, change and disappear, without identification.

"The signless concentration of heart." sounds much the same. Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation is similar too.

In actuality Mahamudra and probably Dzogchen, are the same...what distinguishes them is the mythological constructs around them like "empowerments ". Essentially they are bare attention practices .

So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.

Suzukis comment about thoughts was "when they come in the front door let them go out the back, dont invite them for tea." Thats a paraphrase.

Modus.Ponens wrote:So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.

No, but the idea that Zen is about 'having no thoughts' is a popular myth. Thoughts come and go, without being suppressed or chased.

An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.

This style of practice is quite common these days in the insight meditation and theravada communities, particularly in the West.

However the phrase "concentration without object" is a bit of an oxymoron, Awareness is a better term.

tiltbillings wrote:An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.

I've practiced 'choiceless awareness' and shikantaza and they are essentially the same, except that in Zen they are more strict about how you sit.

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose?

As in the link bodom gave "Animitto Sutta: The Signless" the goal is "great super-knowledge".

How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Yes, I agree. As the sutta stated the object is droped after reaching the "sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception".

Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).