concentration without object

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Modus.Ponens
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concentration without object

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose? How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.

Metta
Are you referring to shikantaza?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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bodom
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Re: concentration without object

Post by bodom »

Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Modus.Ponens »

bodom wrote:Animitto Sutta: The Signless SN 40.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
So if I understand it correctly, Moggallana attained nibbana while in this state?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
Well, it is not to try to have no thoughts; it is, rather, not to be fixed on any one thing. You cannot have concentration or consciousness with an object, but the object can changed very, very rapidly. It is what is called moment-to-moment concentration or bare attention in vipassana practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

Modus.Ponens wrote:I had to look in wikipedia what that is and yes that is what I meant. The method it seems (I'm not well informed about this so correct me if I'm wrong) is to try to have no thoughts. is it a good method? it seems to me like an ilusorily direct way of getting into this state.
No, it isn't about having no thoughts. It is remaining anchored in the reality of the present moment, yet with an open, allowing awareness rather than a narrow, focussed one. Phenomena (including thoughts) are allowed to appear, change and disappear, without identification.

"The signless concentration of heart." sounds much the same. Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation is similar too.
PeterB
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Re: concentration without object

Post by PeterB »

In actuality Mahamudra and probably Dzogchen, are the same...what distinguishes them is the mythological constructs around them like "empowerments ". Essentially they are bare attention practices .
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Modus.Ponens »

So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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m0rl0ck
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Re: concentration without object

Post by m0rl0ck »

Suzukis comment about thoughts was "when they come in the front door let them go out the back, dont invite them for tea." Thats a paraphrase.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

Modus.Ponens wrote:So the method to get there is to just trying remain fully aware of what's happening? I thought the method to get there was to try to have no thoughts because in karate dojos, the instructions for meditation are these: to try to have no thoughts.
No, but the idea that Zen is about 'having no thoughts' is a popular myth. Thoughts come and go, without being suppressed or chased.
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tiltbillings
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Re: concentration without object

Post by tiltbillings »

An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Goofaholix »

This style of practice is quite common these days in the insight meditation and theravada communities, particularly in the West.

However the phrase "concentration without object" is a bit of an oxymoron, Awareness is a better term.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Shonin
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Shonin »

tiltbillings wrote:An expression borrowed from Krishnamurti - choieless awareness - has been taken over by Western vipassana teachers, fits here.
I've practiced 'choiceless awareness' and shikantaza and they are essentially the same, except that in Zen they are more strict about how you sit.
Freawaru
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Re: concentration without object

Post by Freawaru »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Hello

I wanted to ask what is the role of the meditative state of concentration without object in Theravada. Is it mentioned in the suttas? What is its purpose?
As in the link bodom gave "Animitto Sutta: The Signless" the goal is "great super-knowledge".
How is it achieved? Zazen AFAIK is a way of cultivating this state, but I don't know if it's the right method. Something like going into jhana and then droping the object would be a easier way than the zazen aproach; at least that's what I think.
Yes, I agree. As the sutta stated the object is droped after reaching the "sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception".

Concentration without an object (signless concentration) in Theravada is very different from the "bare attention" or mindfulness or trying to remain fully aware of what's happening (these are known in Theravada, too, of course). It is neither insight with concentration on a stable object (such as breath) nor insight with an object changing from moment to moment (momentary concentration as in Mahasi method).
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