Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

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Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:04 am

What is the difference between:

To know through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)
Vs
To know through touching and abiding with the body, and know through wisdom (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)?


Does the first imply indirect knowing with wisdom of something, without actually experiencing it "with the body"?

With metta,


Alex
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:27 am

Greetings Alex,

What's the context this appears in?

Without knowing the context, it's quite possible this is referring to the "body witness" variety of sekha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

What's the context this appears in?

Without knowing the context, it's quite possible this is referring to the "body witness" variety of sekha.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Two types of Arahants

Pannavimutti Arahants are said to know Jhana 1-9 through wisdom:
"There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html


Both Liberated Arhats are said about Jhanas to:
"There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways, though with a sequel.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:31 am

Hi Alex,

I thought it was the distinction between having mastery of the formless attainments (plus wisdom) and having "just" the wisdom (without the mastery of the formless attainments).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.[4] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment. Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.


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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:46 am

The problem is that Arhat liberated through wisdom is said even about 1st Jhana to
"and he knows it through wisdom (paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti), not just Aruppas, but from 1st Jhana and higher.

On the other hand Both-Liberated is said even about 1st Jhana to "he remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment." (kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṃ pajānāti)
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:27 am

Hi Alex,

I think that's why Bhikkhu Bodhi here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
seems to be suggesting that Jhana is probably necessary for the non-returner level, and almost certainly the Arahant level. Perhaps there are some useful clues in that article - I have not studied it in detail.

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:08 am

SN 12.70 (S ii 121) Susima Sutta tells of arahant-s who were liberated through discernment but hadn't realized any of the other five higher gnoses (abhiñña-s) or the formless attainments.

MN 70 (M i 477) Kīṭāgiri Sutta and AN 9.44 (A iv 452) Paññāvimutta Sutta tell us that to be liberated through discernment one does so via at least the first jhāna. Thus the arahant-s in SN 12.70 were able to attain at least the first jhāna (in the suttantika sense of jhāna).

Liberated both ways (ubhatobhāgavimutta) is usually understood to have both the jhāna-s and formless attainments, as well as the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha). There is an abhidhamma distinction between those liberated both ways who don't attain cessation of apperception and feeling and those who do. I can't remember if this is specifically addressed in the sutta-s.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,

I think that's why Bhikkhu Bodhi here: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
seems to be suggesting that Jhana is probably necessary for the non-returner level, and almost certainly the Arahant level. Perhaps there are some useful clues in that article - I have not studied it in detail.

Mike


Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:17 pm

Alex123 wrote:Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.

According to the discourses it is quite clear. The difficulty arises when one reads abhidhammika terms and categories into the discourses. Ven. Brahmāli Jhāna and Lokuttarajjhāna:

    Samādhi and jhāna are terms used in the Suttanta-bhājaniya and thus they refer to Sutta usage. In particular, as they are closely related to the above mentioned sets that constitute the path to Enlightenment, they are factors of that same path. Lokuttarajjhāna, on the other hand, belongs to the Abhidhamma-bhājaniya and is a term for the constellation of mental factors present at the moments of Enlightenment. Being a term peculiar to the Abhidhamma-bhājaniya, it only relates to the Abhidhamma and can therefore not be used to explain samādhi or jhāna as it appears in the Suttas. If this is correct, it follows that the Commentaries make a dangerous blunder when they explain jhāna and samādhi with Abhidhamma terminology that was never capable of being used in this way.
Ven. Ṭhānissaro, Wings to Awakening:

    [W]hat jhāna means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhāna as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhāna in the canonical sense.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:31 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Well, the maggaphala moment itself is a sort of lokuttara Jhana moment - so it is not 100% clear if mundane jhana is required, or any jhana that is separate from this path moment.

According to the discourses it is quite clear. .[/list]


What is your opinion on Patisambhidamagga of Sutta-Pitaka?

It clearly states that 37 factors of awakening (note: factors OF awakening, not factors FOR awakening) happen during transcendental path/fruition moment.

Often Suttas imply this when they mention path with Jhana. A monk after long preparations sits down, enters Jhana (usually to 4th level) and realizes triple knowledge immedetely afterwards. So all the suttas could be read in the light of Jhana happening during maggaphala moment.

With Best wishes,

Alex
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:21 pm

Alex123 wrote:What is your opinion on Patisambhidamagga of Sutta-Pitaka?

It clearly states that 37 factors of awakening (note: factors OF awakening, not factors FOR awakening) happen during transcendental path/fruition moment.

Hi Alex,

The Paṭisambhidāmagga is an abhidhammika presentation, even if it is now included in the Khuddakanikāya. It employs the thought-world and terminology of the abhidhamma. (For example, the author of the Vimuttimagga often refers to quotations from it as being from the abhidhamma.)

Often Suttas imply this when they mention path with Jhana. A monk after long preparations sits down, enters Jhana (usually to 4th level) and realizes triple knowledge immedetely afterwards. So all the suttas could be read in the light of Jhana happening during maggaphala moment.

The "long preparations" necessary in order to attain the fourth jhāna and realize triple knowledge require the previous development of jhāna. This is implied in the discourses which describe the path –- being integral components of the gradual training.

The possibility of rare cases where one realizes the triple knowledge without much prior meditation practice is more of a theoretical hypothesis than something which accords with the life-experience of any long term practitioner that I know. I'm not saying that it would be impossible, but that it would be a very rare occurrence.

Even if one employs abhidhammika terminology, the concomitant arising of all the mental factors associated with lokuttarajjhāna (as listed in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi for example), would require a great deal of proficiency in the development of sīla, samādhi (jhāna in the suttantika sense), and paññā.

All the best,

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:52 pm

Hello Geoff,


I guess we will disagree on Ptsm.

As for the suttas, there is an interesting chart in DN 34 book of 9s
Nava yonisomanasikāramūlakā dhammā, yonisomanasikaroto pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati, samāhite citte yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati, yathābhūtaṃ jānaṃ passaṃ nibbindati, nibbindaṃ virajjati, virāgā vimuccati. Ime nava dhammā bahukārā. PTS D3.288

Nine ideas rooted in careful attention.With wise attention gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when he is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his mind becomes concentrated; with his
concentrated mind he knows and sees things as they've become


Note: The samadhi part is well after yoniso-manasikaro an is rooted in it. IMHO well developed yonisomanasikaro is not really a mundane cause, non-Buddhists do not reflect in anatta (for example) way. Thus the samadhi that is actually responsible for knowing and seeing as it has become (yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati,) is not a worldly one.

And as long as a person has wrong views, IMHO, all and any "samadhi" is miccha-samadhi which can do only one thing - move one further from right understanding. IMHO.

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



With metta,

Alex
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:25 am

Alex123 wrote:As for the suttas, there is an interesting chart in DN 34 book of 9s

A discourse mentioning some of the significant aspects of the path of gradual training in a sequential list doesn’t entail the consequence that any of the aspects of this list are meant to be interpreted as aspects developed or arising in any sort of rapid, momentary sequence.

Applying the theory of radical momentariness to the actual path of gradual training impoverishes the path and marginalizes the samādhi component of integral praxis. One ends up with a dry, reductionist path largely devoid of the development of positive affective qualities so often mentioned in the sutta-s; qualities such as delight (pāmojja), joy (pīti), rapture (pīti in the context of jhāna), pleasure (sukha), etc.. Ven. Sujata:

    “Samādhi becomes, not an exalted, stable coalescence of mind, but a ‘momentary samādhi’ running after the fluctuations of phenomena. The path becomes, not a gradual program of spiritual development, but a ‘path-moment’, gone in a flash.” – The Mystique of the Abhidhamma

Samādhi is reduced to attending to what Ven. K. Ñāṇananda has referred to as:

    “...heaps of perceptual data, which we are told today are essential requisites for admission into the ‘city’ of Nibbāna.” – The Mind Stilled, Nibbāna Sermon 15

Elsewhere Ven. Ñāṇananda has referred to this tendency as the:

    “...relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness....” – Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, p. 32.

Alex123 wrote:IMHO well developed yonisomanasikaro is not really a mundane cause, non-Buddhists do not reflect in anatta (for example) way. Thus the samadhi that is actually responsible for knowing and seeing as it has become (yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati,) is not a worldly one.

Yoniso manasikāra is a prerequisite even for attaining stream-entry. Moreover, the jhāna-s of sammāsamādhi are never “worldly” samādhi-s.

Alex123 wrote:And as long as a person has wrong views, IMHO, all and any "samadhi" is miccha-samadhi which can do only one thing - move one further from right understanding. IMHO.

Of course.

All the best,

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:47 pm

Hello Geoff, all,

Ñāṇa wrote:A discourse mentioning some of the significant aspects of the path of gradual training in a sequential list doesn’t entail the consequence that any of the aspects of this list are meant to be interpreted as aspects developed or arising in any sort of rapid, momentary sequence.


In the Bahiya Sutta, Ven. Bahiya went from ordinary good wordling on a wrong path, to an Arahant within a single discourse. He completed 4 maggaphalas and 37 factors of awakening within seconds. This example and others show us that the path can be momentary.

Devata: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."

[later the Buddha taught Bahiya the famous teaching]
Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:17 pm

The path can be momentary for Bahiya. He has special mention as the quickest of the lot. We should not use an atypical example and think it applies to us. Many suttas just talk of people going away after speaking to the Buddha and sitting upright in the forest and achieving what can be achieved by with strong effort. Bill Gates should not be considered that end result of someone embarking on a career in IT. :)

I agree with the importance of samadhi as mentioned by the above posters. While each path factor may well lead on from the first to the last, they can be developed individually as well. Those meditation technicians of the mind know the specific development of samadhi is invaluable. Also the effect of samadhi is not adequately captured intellectually- hence poorly expressed in books. I would almost go as far to say that 40-50% of the battle is to develop a pure strong samadhi.

This is not to say the those doing 'vipassana' will not eventually get into jhana. They do. I have yet to meet a dry vipassana master who didn't go into jhana while doing 'dry' vipassana. The path works just like the Buddha intended it (right mindfulness leads to right concentration).

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:33 pm

Alex123 wrote:In the Bahiya Sutta, Ven. Bahiya went from ordinary good wordling on a wrong path, to an Arahant within a discource. He completed 4 maggaphalas and 37 factors of awakening within seconds. This example and others show us that the path can be momentary.

Hi Alex,

Another sutta tells us that Ven. Bāhiya had the capacity for sharp understanding (khippābhiññā). And as a dedicated ascetic, it is quite probable that Bāhiya was already at a high level of development with regard to ethical conduct (sīla) and concentration (samādhi). So I would suggest that Ven. Bāhiya was already quite highly developed when he earnestly set out to find the Buddha after being rebuked by the deva.

Ven. Bāhiya was no "average Joe." :anjali:

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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:37 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Also the effect of samadhi is not adequately captured intellectually- hence poorly expressed in books.

Very true RYB.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:52 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Another sutta tells us that Ven. Bāhiya had the capacity for sharp understanding (khippābhiññā). And as a dedicated ascetic, it is quite probable that Bāhiya was already at a high level of development with regard to ethical conduct (sīla) and concentration (samādhi).


What kind of Samadhi was there if as devata says Bahiya was:
"You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."]



Furthermore, Samma-Samadhi is defined as containing 7 factors of N8P.
Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So how could Bahiya have noble right concentration if he was not on the path?
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby Nyana » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:47 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Another sutta tells us that Ven. Bāhiya had the capacity for sharp understanding (khippābhiññā). And as a dedicated ascetic, it is quite probable that Bāhiya was already at a high level of development with regard to ethical conduct (sīla) and concentration (samādhi).

What kind of Samadhi was there if as devata says Bahiya was:
"You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."]

So how could Bahiya have noble right concentration if he was not on the path?

As I said, it is likely that he had a high level of development with regard to concentration (samādhi). What he lacked was right view (sammādiṭṭhi). Therefore his way of practice (paṭipadā) wasn't conducive as a path to arahantship (arahattamagga), and his samādhi wasn't sammāsamādhi. The instruction he received from the Buddha enabled him to discern right view, and with that the other seven components of the noble eightfold path quickly aligned.
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Re: Touching with the body vs knowing through wisdom

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:18 pm

The first people Buddha thought of teaching were his teachers- perhaps out of gratitude/familiarity but all because 'they had little dust in their eyes' These teaches were reaching formless jhanas hence they had well unified minds full of samadhi, but were not on the path to nibbaana.
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