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minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:02 pm
by freefall
Is there space here for this topic? My practice suffers because I do not meditate, practice mindfulness or even lightly consider following the 8FP as a guide to my daily life. When I meditate it feels intolerable. However when I meditate within a few minutes I almost always experience expanded consciousness which lasts for several hours at the least. What is going on with me? Feedback would be welcome.

Peter

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:05 pm
by bodom
What kind of meditation do you practice?

:namaste:

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:57 pm
by Ceisiwr
When I meditate it feels intolerable
When you meditate do you try really hard to focus so it feels like a strain? You may be trying to hard, remember meditation is about letting go.

Try not to think to much about what your doing, Know and let go as Ajhan Chah would say

Also remember to be gentle with the mind, being to forceful will only lead to frustration


:namaste:

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:47 pm
by freefall
Thank you for your responses. When I actually do meditate I usually use the method of sitting, and focusing on the air leaving my nostrils. When my attention wanders I bring it back to the nostrils. When I couple this meditation with teachings about the nature of letting go it puts my mind into some altered states, and occasionally a greater sense of continuity and unity with all things hits me like a ton of breaks. I try to breathe through that but eventually my feelings of excitement of having found a truth as well as a valid path overwhelms me and the feeling fades. If I could I would meditate all day and night. I have the time and space to do it, but I don't have the discipline despite these amazing experiences. I feel so close to "breaking through" my limited perspective however I rarely do anything about it. I studied in Thailand for three months with some Dhammayut monks and was even going to ordain however it is tough work and worldly distractions have the reward of immediate gratification. I can follow this pattern the rest of my natural life but that is a disappointing thought. I wish I could seriously commit to my practice. I am far from hopeless or powerless; I am tired of worldly distraction and have been for a long time. How do I do that? How do I develop my practice? I would go back to Thailand or somewhere closer to home even, if I thought I wasn't going to be wasting everyone's resources. I came here to Dhamma Wheel and Buddha Chat because I do need the Sangha to help me figure out what to do. Floating_Bo of Buddha Chat said “meditate” and is correct. But I find meditation feels intolerable. I certainly have plenty of softness for myself, how do I segue that into a strong practice. And why do I have such amazing experiences when I contemplate the dharma when I am such a poor practitioner? Thanks for your feedback. Peter

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:46 am
by nathan
You can practice meditation either with or without discipline but the trade of is more awareness of more suffering. For predominantly pleasant meditation to arise more commonly overall there must be a basis of virtue and that requires discipline in all aspects of life. So you are noting what would be natural to note in meditation and the more you do this the more you will see that it is so. At that point you may opt to consider virtue and the discipline that goes with it in order to lessen your suffering. The discipline is worth it but we can only see the worth directly for ourselves. So continue, however you will.

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:59 am
by freefall
What a insightful post Nathan. The idea that I find meditation intolerable because of the lack of virtue in my life is startling.
Thank you.

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:13 am
by nathan
Yes, and it has been startling to me many times already... It is our whole being that we examine with calm and insight and we see how virtue is beneficial and we pursue it and are rewarded. Otherwise life just happens to us and we are at the mercy of that as well as not understanding what is in our best interests. These aren't our feelings and thoughts. They just happen because of the ways that things are. So we can understand them and make informed decisions about what we are or this experience will simply define us whether we like it or not.

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:26 am
by freefall
Wow Nathan, you said a lot with that statement. I hardly understand what you are saying. It seems you are saying several things.you said: "It is our whole being that we examine with calm and insight..." That implies that when I am meditating I am looking at myself from a perspective that can effectively measure and define who I am. Since we are talking about my meditation feeling intolerable that implies my virtue is intolerable and from my wider perspective, I am self-defined as intolerable. Therefore if I act in a more disciplined way to accrue virtue my meditation will be more tolerable, and I will be self-defined as more tolerable. That would be one reward of virtue. Later on you said: "Otherwise life just happens to us and we are at the mercy of that as well as not understanding what is in our best interests." You seem to be saying the examined (with calm and insight) life diminishes the frequency/severity of unpurposeful events in addition to creating understanding about what is best for ourselves. You go onto say "These aren't our feelings and thoughts. They just happen because of the ways that things are." I don't understand. What isn't our feelings and thoughts? The reactions we have to a unexamined life? The feelings and thoughts of a non-virtuous life? I am sorry, I just don't understand. The general gist of your reply seems to be that by meditating and practicing discipline we not only know who we are, not only have a pleasant meditative experience, but we get to redefine ourselves. I am not trying to create a problem here. I probably understand what you are saying and am just being obtuse, but reasoning with me is effective in changing some of my actions. Do you mind confirming or reexplaining what you are saying? Thank you, and sorry for the thick head. :rolleye:

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:42 am
by genkaku
Maybe the usual approach to meditation is to meditate in order to feel better. Certainly no one ever took up the practice in order to feel worse. But the fact of the matter is that in our lives, sometimes we feel better and sometimes we feel worse. Either way, things don't seem to get much better as far as uncertainty or sorrow is concerned.

Meditation is not about feeling better. It is not about feeling worse. It is about getting more sensible in our lives. This takes some determination, since feeling good and feeling bad is what we may be used to.

Expecting to get something from meditation is a sure-fire way of getting nothing very satisfactory. So maybe it is better -- to the extent possible -- to practice our practice and FIND OUT what happens rather than expecting something to happen. Just sit down and engage in whatever practice you prefer and -- instead of waiting for angels to descend or devils to attack -- just pay attention. When you pay attention, anything is possible ... and you are ready for anything.

Just my two cents.

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:07 am
by freefall
pretty sweet genkaku...go into meditation not expecting anything. I like that. Thanks...put a smile on my face. Sometimes I trap myself in thick coils of logic-nonsense.

Peter

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:28 am
by jcsuperstar
tips from ajahn brahm

Tips for meditation

1) Relax - Start by relaxing your body physically, removing any tension in your muscles. Then imagine transferring that same action of relaxing your body to relaxing your mind.

2) Let go - Don't try to gain anything or get rid of anything through your meditation.

3) Do nothing - The more you try to control the mind, the stiffer it becomes and the less suited for meditation. Just do nothing and leave the mind alone and it will become still on its own.

4) Be kind and gentle to yourself - Adopt a kind and gentle attitude in your meditation. Don't be too forceful with your body and mind. Don't try too hard or be too impatient. Gently and softly is the fastest way.

5) Focus on the how, not the what - The trick in meditation is not to focus on what you're experiencing but how you're experiencing it. What's more important than the object of meditation is how you are relating to the object (see number 6).

6) Give unconditional love to every moment - Another dimension of loving-kindness meditation (metta bhavana), in addition to giving unconditional love to yourself and other beings, is giving unconditional love to every moment. Open the door of your heart to whatever you're experiencing in your mind and body, whether it is comfort or pain, calm or restlessness, alertness or torpor, etc.

7) Keep theory and practice in balance - Theory is like a map, practice is like a flashlight. Both are needed to find treasure, but both have to be kept in balance.

8) Enjoy meditation!

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:10 am
by Element
freefall wrote:When I meditate it feels intolerable.
FF

Generally, everyone starts like this. Keep meditating until it become tolerable. The 'intolerable' is impermanent and ends quickly enough if you have aspiration for peace.

Best wishes

E

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:28 pm
by freefall
Thank you all for your support and encouragement. I find it helpful.
Peter :meditate:

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:04 pm
by Ceisiwr
Element pretty much hit the nail on the head. When I first started it was tough and could only sit for 15 minutes each day but I kept patiently practising and over time my meditation deepend and the sitting sessions lasted longer. Didnt plan for them to it just comes around naturally.

Just keep meditating and be patient, dont beat yourself up to much. Mediation is actually a very natural thing, you will find you ease into it in no time :smile:


:namaste:

Re: minimum to no discipline...

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:31 pm
by nathan
freefall wrote:Do you mind confirming or reexplaining what you are saying? Thank you, and sorry for the thick head.
Sure, I'm willing to elaborate. I just find that I can tend to go on and on and on searching for a way to say something in a better way and I probably am more clear if I can say something in a very few words. Everyone is correct in telling you to set aside expectations but they are likely well aware of many things of which you may not be aware. Things you need to understand. You can live life with out any expectations at all if you are willing to accept whatever happens and you do not care what happens. Does this describe you? Or do you expect more? Do you expect that if you are well instructed and well trained that you will be able to get a job done or do you expect that you can just go apply for any job in the world and be just as qualified to do it as the next guy? Does this make sense to you?

1.That implies that when I am meditating I am looking at myself from a perspective that can effectively measure and define who I am.

With meditation we are working towards having that perspective, we start from where we are. We get there by practicing in a very specific way and not just by "whatever way we feel like". We practice with one thing foremost in mind. This body, these sensations, feelings, thoughts, everything, is not me. We just look at our body and mind as if it is all alien, a complete unknown, because it is. So long as we keep this prime directive foremost in our minds we will always and increasingly see that this is true and we will eventually arrive at full understanding of what we are.

We are not working towards a self definition, we are fixing a broken machine and yes, some parts are worth keeping and some parts are better thrown away. If we see this we benefit, if not we remain confused.

2. You seem to be saying the examined (with calm and insight) life diminishes the frequency/severity of unpurposeful events in addition to creating understanding about what is best for ourselves.

Not merely purposeless but unwholesome, unhealthy and harmful thoughts, speech and action which will hurt us and can easily destroy us. Furthermore we discover how wholesome, healthy and beneficial thoughts, speech and action will heal us and bring us immeasurable joy, peace, knowledge and wisdom.

3. What isn't our feelings and thoughts?

This goes back to the first point. You have to see for yourself. The Buddha and those who have likewise fully known and understood for themselves all assure us that none of it is ours. I am quite convinced, even though I still see very little, but I have put some time into looking. When we sit to meditate or when we walk and meditate or as we work through our day we naturally have assumed that all of it is me, myself and mine. The body is mine, the sensations are mine, the feelings are mine, all that is sensed is my experience, the thoughts are mine; it is all me and mine. That is the natural, untrained assumption and even more than this we will be held accountable by everyone else for all of that. So whether it is ours or not so we are compelled to think, feel and act as if it is me, myself and mine just to get through life in this world.

Because this is our natural practice, we know nothing else unless we practice something else. When we sit down to practice as if none of what is in or of the body and mind in whole or in part is me, we have no choice but to put up with the patterns of continuing to identify with all of it almost entirely. We train to give up that practice and adopt a new one. So usually we continue to assume that some or all of the feelings are me or some or all of the thoughts are me or that the awareness which can observe the thoughts and feelings are me. In fact none of it is me, not a single molecule or even one wisp of awareness, none of it. But we don't even realize how much of it is completely hidden to that awareness. So every time something new is felt or thought or comes to awareness we immediately jump on it and think "ah, this is new, this is very pleasant, this must be me". Or else we think, "uhhgh, this again, this is unpleasant, I don't want this to be in me, I don't want to look at this, I want this to go away" or whatever. Continuing on in this way we continue to remain blind and unwise even after a million years of meditation.

When we study the Buddha's teaching we are being blessed by the teachings of the greatest meditator we have ever known of and he makes very clear, in comprehensive detail, how to proceed. We are always, always, always, to consider all things that we observe in our body and mind and even all things that are observing those other things to be NOT ME, NOT MYSELF and NOT MINE. If we practice this always, everything is meditation. If we do not do this, we are not meditating as the Buddha taught and so we cannot expect to gain the benefits or the wisdom that comes from following the path he showed us.

I can only refer you to the Buddha's teachings. Go directly to these. Read. Ponder. Consider and act on these teachings. No one here or anyone else can teach you better. I am sure of it and I am sure you would see this as well. When you understand better what the Buddha is teaching us all, then it will be easier for you to benefit from the things that other followers here and elsewhere have also learned from following the Buddha's teaching and taking steps to walk that path.