Objectionless meditation and inner silence

[Ville N]

Dear friends in the Dhamma,

here's a question for you. Today after doing my daily ashtanga yoga practice, about 2 hours long, I was relaxing in the corpse pose as is part of the ending sequence. Just completely relaxed, not doing anything physically or mentally...after about 10 minutes or so, I sharpened my awareness just a bit to detach the mind from its usual thought-riding antics. Like many times before, the end result was a mind that became distinctly silent. No thoughts, just soothing silence...and after a while, my alarm went off, got a text message etc.

Now this is not the first time I've experienced this, so it got me wondering: is there any merit in such a meditation method that has no particular object? Is it possible to go further than the silence, or is that it? I mean all I do is just let go first, and then sharpen the awareness just a bit...

And yes, I'd appreciate advice coming from personal meditation experience, since I've already read more than enough books :D

Ville

[Individual]

It is possible to take "no particular object" as the object and to take the "inner silence," as the sound of meditation. Rather than seeking more or newer ways in which to think about these things, I would simply keep investigating.

[Ville N]

Yeah, my thoughts as well...that's what I plan on doing regardless.

[Dan74]

If there is a deep letting go, there is a possibility of a lot of bliss and then attachment to the very pleasurable bliss states.

Because many fetters lie dormant in such a state it is easy to confuse it with a realization and then cling to it. That's why objectless meditation can be a danger - it may not lead to insight but instead cultivate a subtle ego-clinging around such states.

Or so I've been taught.

[m0rl0ck]

Dear friends in the Dhamma,

here's a question for you. Today after doing my daily ashtanga yoga practice, about 2 hours long, I was relaxing in the corpse pose as is part of the ending sequence. Just completely relaxed, not doing anything physically or mentally...after about 10 minutes or so, I sharpened my awareness just a bit to detach the mind from its usual thought-riding antics. Like many times before, the end result was a mind that became distinctly silent. No thoughts, just soothing silence...and after a while, my alarm went off, got a text message etc.

Now this is not the first time I've experienced this, so it got me wondering: is there any merit in such a meditation method that has no particular object? Is it possible to go further than the silence, or is that it? I mean all I do is just let go first, and then sharpen the awareness just a bit...

And yes, I'd appreciate advice coming from personal meditation experience, since I've already read more than enough books

Ville

My method is to watch the mind (the silence) with a spirit of inquiry and to let go of whatever comes up. I got this from doing chan huatou practice. Inquiry into this silence is a method that crosses traditions tho. There was a famous hindu sage who used this method as his main practice and teaching method. (Whose name at the moment escapes me) Dont rest in the silence, keep inquiring, ie, "who is this" "what is this" just a gentle looking and inquiring, enough so that dullness and stagnation dont occur, but not so much that you get wound up about it. If you want to use this as a regular meditation method you should probably consult a teacher, i would recommend a chan teacher, but consider the source

EDIT: The sage whose name escaped me was Ramana Maharshi, thank you google

[Goofaholix]

Objectionless!...

... sustained.

[m0rl0ck]

Objectionless!...

... sustained.

I didnt even catch that, thats hilarious

[Virgo]

People like to read what they would like to into things, but if you take a look at the Suttas I don't think the Buddha would recommend this type of meditation. For example, he never praised it once, like he praised anapanasati and listed its benefits, etc. Also, it doesn't seem like an object that you can consistently focus on, because it is born of relaxation after yoga. This does not agree with the Buddha's exhortation to constantly keeping the object in mind, etc. It is more like the meditation of an uninstructed Brahmin with stretches his body and chants the mantras of the Vedas (om, etc.).

Kevin

[m0rl0ck]

People like to read what they would like to into things, but if you take a look at the Suttas I don't think the Buddha would recommend this type of meditation. For example, he never praised it once, like he praised anapanasati and listed its benefits, etc. Also, it doesn't seem like an object that you can consistently focus on, because it is born of relaxation after yoga. This does not agree with the Buddha's exhortation to constantly keeping the object in mind, etc. It is more like the meditation of an uninstructed Brahmin with stretches his body and chants the mantras of the Vedas (om, etc.).

Kevin

Actually this is an object that you can keep pretty consistently in focus with some practice. If you want a sutta based recommendation for it, look at the greater and lesser sunnata suttas. Its always there, just more noticable when one is relaxed.

Theme-Less Concentration
"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.

From the Cula-sunnata sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Virgo]

People like to read what they would like to into things, but if you take a look at the Suttas I don't think the Buddha would recommend this type of meditation. For example, he never praised it once, like he praised anapanasati and listed its benefits, etc. Also, it doesn't seem like an object that you can consistently focus on, because it is born of relaxation after yoga. This does not agree with the Buddha's exhortation to constantly keeping the object in mind, etc. It is more like the meditation of an uninstructed Brahmin with stretches his body and chants the mantras of the Vedas (om, etc.).

Kevin

Actually this is an object that you can keep pretty consistently in focus with some practice. If you want a sutta based recommendation for it, look at the greater and lesser sunnata suttas. Its always there, just more noticable when one is relaxed.

Theme-Less Concentration
"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.

From the Cula-sunnata sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

That's called meditation on the phala citta, the sole resort of noble ones who are jhana labhis. After steadying the mind in jhana, one experiences nibbana phala moments again and again.

Kevin

Kevin

[m0rl0ck]

People like to read what they would like to into things, but if you take a look at the Suttas I don't think the Buddha would recommend this type of meditation. For example, he never praised it once, like he praised anapanasati and listed its benefits, etc. Also, it doesn't seem like an object that you can consistently focus on, because it is born of relaxation after yoga. This does not agree with the Buddha's exhortation to constantly keeping the object in mind, etc. It is more like the meditation of an uninstructed Brahmin with stretches his body and chants the mantras of the Vedas (om, etc.).

Kevin

Actually this is an object that you can keep pretty consistently in focus with some practice. If you want a sutta based recommendation for it, look at the greater and lesser sunnata suttas. Its always there, just more noticable when one is relaxed.

Theme-Less Concentration
"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of nothingness. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.

From the Cula-sunnata sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

That's called meditation on the phala citta, the sole resort of noble ones who are jhana labhis.

It must not be the sole resort of jhana masters, i am aquainted with this silence and the accompanying sense of awareness and i am no jhana master. If you read the literature of spiritual inquiry across traditions, many others have a familiarity with it as well.

[rowyourboat]

I agree with Kevin on this one. Having no object, a the meditator is unlikely to develop samadhi or insight. The Buddha clearly states not to be 'adrift in the bliss'- this is what objectless meditation amounts to...

Animitta ('signless') samadhi is a very specific samadhi practised in higher stages of the path- it is considered one of the doors to full enlightenment- the others being appanihitha and sunnata 'doors'. These are not beginner practices, as a beginners mind simply would be incapable of achieving these rarefied states.

with metta

Matheesha

[kirk5a]

Is there any merit? Well, do you find less stress in such a meditation? Is the stilling of thinking less stressful than the habit of compulsive thinking? Does it help reduce stress outside of formal meditation?

Is it possible to go further? Go? Where? That's a very "here and now" type of meditation. Deeper maybe? More stability of that peace perhaps. Which allows for the possibility using that stillness for clearly seeing, investigating the actuality of the body/mind with more precision and clarity.

[Kenshou]

It's good to know how to turn off the proliferating mind, and getting better at that will probably do nothing but help you when practicing other meditation techniques. But I don't think there's anything particularly special about it in of itself.

Though I do a similar thing sometimes, when I sit down to meditate but before I really "begin", to let the mental dust settle so that I can get down to it with a little more oomph.

[m0rl0ck]

Gee i miss tilt and ben in threads like this I know ben is away, but where is tilt?

[tiltbillings]

Gee i miss tilt and ben in threads like this I know ben is away, but where is tilt?

I have not been reading this thread. Should I?

[ground]

There is no "objectless meditation" in a real sense at all.
It is just called "objectless" since there is no deliberate focus on a specific object. Even if you initially decide not to focus /concentrate on anything this - "not focusing on" or "not concentrating on" or "not grasping" anything - then becomes your focus and thus this state is your object you are actually "concentrating on/in". It is nothing but concentrative meditation but here "concentration" refers to "concentrate" mind in this state.
If this concentration remains "static" you may attain blissfull jhanic states. If subtle discernment does not cease in this state then what actually results is concentration conjoined with vipassana.


Kind regards

[m0rl0ck]

Gee i miss tilt and ben in threads like this I know ben is away, but where is tilt?

I have not been reading this thread. Should I?

idk i just kind of missed your presence

[m0rl0ck]

If this concentration remains "static" you may attain blissfull jhanic states. If subtle discernment does not cease in this state then what actually results is concentration conjoined with vipassana.


Kind regards

Yeah i think thats why traditions that use this as a method pretty much all recommend it being done with a spirit of inquiry to stave off stagnation.

[tiltbillings]

Gee i miss tilt and ben in threads like this I know ben is away, but where is tilt?

I have not been reading this thread. Should I?

idk i just kind of missed your presence

That so sweet. Smooches to if you are female and a manly handshake otherwise. I'll take a look.