Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

Postby starter » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:51 pm

Hi Teachers/friends,

I just read the following:

"Superhuman is the bliss of a monk Who, with mind at peace,
Having entered a secluded place,
Wins insight into Dhamma.
When he fully comprehends The five groups [aggregates]' rise and fall,
He wins to rapture [piti] and to joy [sukha] — The Deathless this, for those who understand."
— Dhammapada vv. 373-374

It seems to suggest who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless (?). But many non-buddhists experience piti and sukha as well, who apprarently don't really experience the deathless because of their delusions of self. The other suttas seem to suggest the experience of formless realms as the experience of the deathless ("body witness") -- which non-buddhists can experience as well. I'm a bit confused about the experience of the deathless now.

With metta,

Starter
starter
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

Postby m0rl0ck » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:21 pm

starter wrote:Hi Teachers/friends,

I just read the following:

"Superhuman is the bliss of a monk Who, with mind at peace,
Having entered a secluded place,
Wins insight into Dhamma.
When he fully comprehends The five groups [aggregates]' rise and fall,
He wins to rapture [piti] and to joy [sukha] — The Deathless this, for those who understand."
— Dhammapada vv. 373-374

It seems to suggest who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless (?). But many non-buddhists experience piti and sukha as well, who apprarently don't really experience the deathless because of their delusions of self. The other suttas seem to suggest the experience of formless realms as the experience of the deathless ("body witness") -- which non-buddhists can experience as well. I'm a bit confused about the experience of the deathless now.

With metta,

Starter


Id like to know more about this myself. So the "deathless" is usually interpreted as the "body-witness" ? What does that mean?
There is no comfort without pain; thus
we define salvation through suffering.
-- Cato
User avatar
m0rl0ck
 
Posts: 1022
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:23 pm

Seems like a strange translation, this http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-373 translates it as "he is full of joy and happiness. To the discerning one this reflects the Deathless", which makes more sense to me.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:04 pm

Nibbana is the highest bliss- even if nothing is felt.

AN 9.34 PTS: A iv 414
Nibbana Sutta: Unbinding
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2011

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.

"Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him...

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, enters & remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the dimension of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Who wins piti and sukha experiences the deathless?

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:59 pm

Dear starter,

Here the deathless means the nibbanic state and piti & sukha here means the joy known by those who have experienced the nibbanic state. It is said that true happiness is known only by those who have experienced the deathless.

Hope have helped.

Parth
Sambodhi in Oz
 
Posts: 157
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:53 pm


Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Digity, Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests