Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

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Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby villkorkarma » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:14 pm

Hi
I read this text: http://watbuddhaoregon.com/view_forums/ ... PIC_ID=171
SIXTEEN INSIGHT KNOWLEDGES*
Compiled by Phrakhrughositbuddhisat
(Theerapan Vajiranano, Pali 4, Ph.D.)
Edited by Ben Heffer

There it says about extremely painfull sensations as a stadium.

Is that right or wrong described.
dont hurt anyone in any sort of way
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:52 am

Hi,

It seems a strange way to nibbana. At different stages it describes the body & mind becoming extremely fatigued. The Buddha explicitly states that nibbana cannot be reached when the body is fatigued. A lot of the nanas seem to describe a tantric/kundalini/chakra approach, which is heavily centred on the "body". It strikes me as some form of asceticism akin to the niganthas. Having had experience with different meditation techniques and the "nanas", I can say that they can help people with such things as determination & discipline. However the nanas explicitly state that pain is a fundamental base or stepping stone to nibbana, if someone think's this is compatible with the Buddha's teaching - that is up to their own discernment.

Please note - pain CAN arise during meditation, and it is the duty of the meditator to try and calm the the body and mind - not think of that pain as an actual attainment towards realising nibbana. We might as well stick a pin in our eye and observe the painful sensations, if we think that pain is a neccessary stage.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:36 am

Hi Legolas,

I'm no expert in attaining nibbana, but it seems to me a reasonable assumption that such accounts are based on practical experience.

As you say, in meditation pain often arises. Where does the link say it is necessary, or that the meditator should seek it out by poking herself/himself in the eye?
Having a painful sensation is another way the meditator may know that he has attained the Sammasana-ñana. A strong pain occurs to him that is indescribable. The appearance of such indescribable strong pain causes him to be clearly mindful of the three characteristics (Tilakkhana), so that he rightly understands Rupa (physicality) and Nama (mentality) just as they really are. He sees suffering clearly when the painful sensation is observed. Because the pain disappears when noted, he realizes impermanence which is a specific characteristic of non-self which cannot be controlled by anyone.


It's not as if the Buddha described his attainment as some sort of blissful holiday:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress...


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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby Kenshou » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:51 am

It's not as if the Buddha described his attainment as some sort of blissful holiday

Well, no, but it's not described as some sort of torturous hell either. For example, we have the sambojjhanga of joy/piti, tranquility/passiddhi, equanimity/upekkha...
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:52 am

Where are the flickering eyelids?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:03 am

Kenshou wrote:
It's not as if the Buddha described his attainment as some sort of blissful holiday

Well, no, but it's not described as some sort of torturous hell either. For example, we have the sambojjhanga of joy/piti, tranquility/passiddhi, equanimity/upekkha...

Sure, and the link says:
F. Passaddhi : This is tranquility both physically and mentally; the body becomes light, not coarse, and free from both physical suffering and mental suffering. It is a peaceful mind, a light mind, a gentle mind, an adaptable mind and a relaxed mind; one is enjoying gladness more than any ordinary man has ever experienced.


robertk wrote:Where are the flickering eyelids?

No sure. What's the Pali for "flickering eyelids?" :reading:

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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Legolas,

I'm no expert in attaining nibbana, but it seems to me a reasonable assumption that such accounts are based on practical experience.

As you say, in meditation pain often arises. Where does the link say it is necessary, or that the meditator should seek it out by poking herself/himself in the eye?
Having a painful sensation is another way the meditator may know that he has attained the Sammasana-ñana. A strong pain occurs to him that is indescribable. The appearance of such indescribable strong pain causes him to be clearly mindful of the three characteristics (Tilakkhana), so that he rightly understands Rupa (physicality) and Nama (mentality) just as they really are. He sees suffering clearly when the painful sensation is observed. Because the pain disappears when noted, he realizes impermanence which is a specific characteristic of non-self which cannot be controlled by anyone.


It's not as if the Buddha described his attainment as some sort of blissful holiday:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress...


:anjali:
Mike


Further in the link you will find...............................



"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."

Now I am no expert in attaining nibbana but I believe the Buddha was. He never mentioned these stages.

In jhana the arising & passing away of joy/bliss etc. can be viewed as stressful.

As far as poking oneself in the eye - This is not recommended - it was an analogy.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:55 am

robertk wrote:Where are the flickering eyelids?


What are "flickering eyelids"?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:03 am

legolas wrote:Now I am no expert in attaining nibbana but I believe the Buddha was. He never mentioned these stages.


See Ñāṇa/Geoff's various posts.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7281&start=60#p118052
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is the canonical source for the so-called "insight-gnoses" (vipassanāñāṇa-s). The noble path arises through contemplating the signlessness of the aggregates, ...


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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:04 am

legolas wrote:
robertk wrote:Where are the flickering eyelids?


What are "flickering eyelids"?

See http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7278

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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:23 am

And so the sniping comments and direct pokes at vipassana practice begin - again.

It might be worth comparing that text to this:

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html

and a bit on pain in the Mahasi Sayadaw type practice:

http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/02/se ... sting.html

As far as the above linked text is concerned, it probably deserves to be read a little more carefully.

Since we have bodies and they are part of the vehicle of practice, pain is part of the practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:24 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:
robertk wrote:Where are the flickering eyelids?


What are "flickering eyelids"?

See viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7278

:anjali:
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Sorry, I still don't get it. Am I being a bit slow to get a joke?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:25 am

mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:Now I am no expert in attaining nibbana but I believe the Buddha was. He never mentioned these stages.


See Ñāṇa/Geoff's various posts.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p118052
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is the canonical source for the so-called "insight-gnoses" (vipassanāñāṇa-s). The noble path arises through contemplating the signlessness of the aggregates, ...


:anjali:
Mike


Ahh! The Paṭisambhidāmagga, I thought it was something the Buddha elucidated.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:29 am

legolas wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
legolas wrote:Now I am no expert in attaining nibbana but I believe the Buddha was. He never mentioned these stages.


See Ñāṇa/Geoff's various posts.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7281&start=60#p118052
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is the canonical source for the so-called "insight-gnoses" (vipassanāñāṇa-s). The noble path arises through contemplating the signlessness of the aggregates, ...


:anjali:
Mike


Ahh! The Paṭisambhidāmagga, I thought it was something the Buddha elucidated.
No. Just some guy named Sariputta.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:48 am

Then it was very naughty & remiss of the 1st council not to remember it.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:49 am

Hi Legolas,
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Ahh! The Paṭisambhidāmagga, I thought it was something the Buddha elucidated.
No. Just some guy named Sariputta.

And a bunch of other guys (and gals), who, over the past 2500 years state that they verified it.

Are they all mistaken?

Presumably you have done a comprehensive analysis to ascertain exactly which parts of which Suttas properly explain the Dhamma, and which parts were added at the first, second, and third councils, or beyond?

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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:54 am

legolas wrote:Then it was very naughty & remiss of the 1st council not to remember it.
Yes, well, the naughty monks who included it in the Canon - shame on them.

Actually, do you having anything of any substance to say here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:05 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Legolas,
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Ahh! The Paṭisambhidāmagga, I thought it was something the Buddha elucidated.
No. Just some guy named Sariputta.

And a bunch of other guys (and gals), who, over the past 2500 years state that they verified it.

Are they all mistaken?

Presumably you have done a comprehensive analysis to ascertain exactly which parts of which Suttas properly explain the Dhamma, and which parts were added at the first, second, and third councils, or beyond?

:anjali:
Mike



Yep.








No only kidding. However as far as I am aware it is the suttas that take precedence and since even in the suttas these teachings are not mentioned in the 1st council - I was drawing a glaringly obvious conclusion - the Paṭisambhidāmagga was added at a later time. You say a bunch of guys and gals have "verified" it over 2500 years. Has it not been merely recited, written down and venerated - much like the bible. Are we to say biblical scholars have verified the bible merely because it has been venerated for over 2000years (at least as old as the Paṭisambhidāmagga). The suttas are the teachings that are to be verified and they are the teaching of the Buddha - if the suttas don't do it for people - thats fine - but to add teachings and declare them as the Buddha's word (or Sariputta's) is I think sad.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:08 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Then it was very naughty & remiss of the 1st council not to remember it.
Yes, well, the naughty monks who included it in the Canon - shame on them.

Actually, do you having anything of any substance to say here?


I am merely stating a viewpoint (mine). You do not have to accept it. Neither should my views cause you to get angry.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:11 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Then it was very naughty & remiss of the 1st council not to remember it.
Yes, well, the naughty monks who included it in the Canon - shame on them.

Actually, do you having anything of any substance to say here?


I am merely stating a viewpoint (mine). You do not have to accept it. Neither should my views cause you to get angry.
No anger, but I wonder if there is any real substance to your continual sniping at the Burmese vipassana practices.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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