Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:27 am

legolas wrote:"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."
And this is not true why?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby Nyana » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:31 am

legolas wrote:However as far as I am aware it is the suttas that take precedence and since even in the suttas these teachings are not mentioned in the 1st council - I was drawing a glaringly obvious conclusion - the Paṭisambhidāmagga was added at a later time.

The underlying structure of the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga can be traced to the suttas. They are termed "contemplation" (anupassanā) and "gnosis of contemplation" (anupassanāñāṇa) in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and are either termed "recognition" (saññā) or "contemplation" (anupassanā) in the suttas. The most well known sutta source is the fourth tetrad of the Ānāpānassati Sutta: contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassana), contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassana), contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassana). Other suttas expand on this structure:

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā)
    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46)
    AN 7.95 (PTS A iv 145)
    SN 46.71 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)

    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of unsatisfactoriness in what is impermanent (anicca dukkhasaññā)
    AN 7.96 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.72 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā)
    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory (dukkha anattasaññā)
    AN 7.97 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.73 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1620)

    AN 7.98 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of decay (khayasaññā)

    AN 7.99 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of passing away (vayasaññā)

    AN 10.60 PTS A v 108: Recognition of dispassion (virāgasaññā)
    AN 7.100 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.75 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of cessation (nirodhasaññā)
    AN 7.101 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.76 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)

    AN 7.102 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of release (paṭinissaggasaññā)

Cf. the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga:

    (1) contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā), (2) contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā), (3) contemplation of selflessness (anattānupnupassanā), (4) contemplation of disenchantment (nibbidānupassanā), (5) contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassanā), (6) contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), (7) contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassanāā), (8) contemplation of decay (khayānupassanā), (9) contemplation of passing away (vayānupassanā), (10) contemplation of change (vipariṇāmānupassanā), (11) contemplation of signlessness (animittānupassanā), (12) contemplation of desirelessness (apaṇihitānupassanā), (13) contemplation of emptiness (suññatāupassanā), (14) clear seeing of dhamma with heightened discernment (adhipaññādhammavipassanā), (15) gnosis and vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), (16) contemplation of misery/danger (ādīnavānupassanā), (17) reflexive contemplation (paṭisaṅkhānupassanā), (18) contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā).

Thus, the Paṭisambhidāmagga is just an elaboration of suttanta materials. Of course, what the Paṭisambhidāmagga presents is not the same as the Visuddhimagga, which again reformulates these 18 contemplations and interprets phenomena according to the theory of radical momentariness. And it's possible that modern Burmese based interpretations of the insight-gnoses may not fully reflect what is presented in the Visuddhimagga.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Dukkha is not synonyomous with pain.
And that is one of the direct insights - not just an intellectual construct - that one can see as pain is an object of mindfulness.


I think you miss my point. Pain can truly be an object of mindfulness, however pain is not a necessity and seeing the arising of dukkha does not HAVE to entail the arising of pain. The whole point of jhana is to be able to see the pointless grasping at constructs that arise and fall of their own accord. The tranquility of body and mind is the perfect place from which to watch this seemingly endless display. To watch this display with a body that is agitated according to the Buddha was not conducive.....................

"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:"It should be noted that the clear realization of impermanence is a specific characteristic of the Sammasana-ñana, and it means that the meditator will face many painful sensations."
And this is not true why?


It actually states that pain is an actual station in the process to awakening. If you think that the suttas state this then that is your judgement. The original poster seemed to be questioning this. The Buddha described his own path to awakening as opening up to the pleasure that is not connected with sensual pleasure.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:51 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
legolas wrote:However as far as I am aware it is the suttas that take precedence and since even in the suttas these teachings are not mentioned in the 1st council - I was drawing a glaringly obvious conclusion - the Paṭisambhidāmagga was added at a later time.

The underlying structure of the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga can be traced to the suttas. They are termed "contemplation" (anupassanā) and "gnosis of contemplation" (anupassanāñāṇa) in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and are either termed "recognition" (saññā) or "contemplation" (anupassanā) in the suttas. The most well known sutta source is the fourth tetrad of the Ānāpānassati Sutta: contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassana), contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassana), contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassana). Other suttas expand on this structure:

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā)
    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46)
    AN 7.95 (PTS A iv 145)
    SN 46.71 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)

    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of unsatisfactoriness in what is impermanent (anicca dukkhasaññā)
    AN 7.96 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.72 (PTS S v 132, CDB 1620)

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of selflessness (anattasaññā)
    AN 7.49 (ATI 7.46, PTS A iv 46): Recognition of selflessness in what is unsatisfactory (dukkha anattasaññā)
    AN 7.97 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.73 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1620)

    AN 7.98 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of decay (khayasaññā)

    AN 7.99 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of passing away (vayasaññā)

    AN 10.60 PTS A v 108: Recognition of dispassion (virāgasaññā)
    AN 7.100 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.75 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)

    AN 10.60 (PTS A v 108): Recognition of cessation (nirodhasaññā)
    AN 7.101 (PTS A iv 146)
    SN 46.76 (PTS S v 133, CDB 1621)

    AN 7.102 (PTS A iv 146): Recognition of release (paṭinissaggasaññā)

Cf. the eighteen insight-ñāṇa-s as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga:

    (1) contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā), (2) contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā), (3) contemplation of selflessness (anattānupnupassanā), (4) contemplation of disenchantment (nibbidānupassanā), (5) contemplation of dispassion (virāgānupassanā), (6) contemplation of cessation (nirodhānupassanā), (7) contemplation of release (paṭinissaggānupassanāā), (8) contemplation of decay (khayānupassanā), (9) contemplation of passing away (vayānupassanā), (10) contemplation of change (vipariṇāmānupassanā), (11) contemplation of signlessness (animittānupassanā), (12) contemplation of desirelessness (apaṇihitānupassanā), (13) contemplation of emptiness (suññatāupassanā), (14) clear seeing of dhamma with heightened discernment (adhipaññādhammavipassanā), (15) gnosis and vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), (16) contemplation of misery/danger (ādīnavānupassanā), (17) reflexive contemplation (paṭisaṅkhānupassanā), (18) contemplation of turning away (vivaṭṭanānupassanā).

Thus, the Paṭisambhidāmagga is just an elaboration of suttanta materials. Of course, what the Paṭisambhidāmagga presents is not the same as the Visuddhimagga, which again reformulates these 18 contemplations and interprets phenomena according to the theory of radical momentariness. And it's possible that modern Burmese based interpretations of the insight-gnoses may not fully reflect what is presented in the Visuddhimagga.

All the best,

Geoff


Hi Geoff,

I looked up a few of your sutta references and I am sorry but I do not see the correlation to the eighteen insight knowledges.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:57 am

legolas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
legolas wrote:Dukkha is not synonyomous with pain.
And that is one of the direct insights - not just an intellectual construct - that one can see as pain is an object of mindfulness.


I think you miss my point. Pain can truly be an object of mindfulness, however pain is not a necessity and seeing the arising of dukkha does not HAVE to entail the arising of pain.
I did not miss your point at all. The issue in what I was saying is that pain, which is inevitable in one's meditation practice, can be a very potent way of seeing the how dukkha and anicca functions.

The whole point of jhana is to be able to see the pointless grasping at constructs that arise and fall of their own accord. The tranquility of body and mind is the perfect place from which to watch this seemingly endless display. To watch this display with a body that is agitated according to the Buddha was not conducive.....................
When there is sufficient mindfulness and concentration the pain and agitation can be clearly attended to. Something I posted earlier in a very different context:

During a three month vipassana retreat I was suffering from muscle spasms in my back. Very, very painful, and having struggled with it greatly, I went to one of the teachers there, Joseph Goldstein, who said that I should use the pain as the object of awareness. Damn, the obvious is stated, but sometimes being told the obvious is all that needed.

My next chance to sit was during the evening Dharma talk. As usual the pain started as I assumed my sitting posture. I had all I could do to keep from bolting out of the room to get away from the pain of the posture. With no small effort I was able to bring attention to the pain. As the pain became the object of my attention, everything else was blocked out.

Intense, deep concentration. I heard nothing, was aware of nothing going on around me. There was just pain. Once I was able to establish awareness on – in – the pain, I was able to relax into it. The mindfulness became clear and very precise.

The pain which had been a solid rock like thing became a play of sensation changing at an incredible rate, and the closer I attended to the change the clearer it became. There was no thinking about this, just attending to what was happening. As the muscles spasmed, sending out a paroxysm of pain, there was contracting from the pain – it was not as I wanted it to be - I was suffering.

As the attention become more precise, the pain and suffering were seen as separate but inter-related things, the "I" was an add-on to the pain giving it the sense of suffering and the contracting from that – I do not want this pain.

In the simple act of attending to the pain, this whole dynamic concatenation became clear and obvious, and with that insight the next spasm was not painful. It was, rather, a play of very, very rapidly changing sensations that was empty of a sense of "I". It was even empty of the sense of the concept of pain. The sense of "I" that arose was changing in response the changing conditions, and it, in its arising and changing, was seen as empty of any solidity.

With that there was no resistance, no more contraction. There came a remarkable relaxation of my body, and my attention became very broad and open, attentive to the rise and fall of whatever came into its purview.

The limitations of my body became transparent, there being no inside, no outside. It was all very ordinary: there was the Dharma talk that was happening, the coughing, shuffling of the other students, and the stuff happening "inside" of me. All just stuff happening with incredible rapidity and incredible clarity. It just was, empty, clear rising and falling. Suchness. Openness.


Also, keep in mind that vipassana practice is hardly as "dry" as some try to portray it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby Nyana » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:40 am

legolas wrote:I looked up a few of your sutta references and I am sorry but I do not see the correlation to the eighteen insight knowledges.

What are your sources for interpretation of the eighteen insight-gnoses?

Also, with reference to the general topic of this thread: I've come to appreciate the benefits of what I consider to be a somewhat more balanced approach to intensive practice, i.e. focusing on developing calm (samatha) and skillful affective practices such as the brahmavihāras and buddhānussati, in addition to insight practice. But having done numerous intensive retreats (up to 6 mo. in duration), my experience has been that intensive practice can run the full spectrum from times of elation and joy and gratitude to those of deep sadness, fear, boredom, and even physical pain. Over the years these extremes do begin to even out, but I doubt that anyone can intensively engage in this process without experiencing discomfort on various levels and shedding a few tears along the way.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
Or are you only referring to the authenticty of the Patisam...?
It is as authentic as the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts.

Of course, it is part of the Tipitika.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:54 pm

Hi Tilt,

I can relate to similar experiences of mine to that which you detail above.
However I really do think you are still missing my point, which is ..............pain is not inevitable - it is highly likely. Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby robertk » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:20 pm

legolas wrote:Hi Tilt,

I can relate to similar experiences of mine to that which you detail above.
However I really do think you are still missing my point, which is ..............pain is not inevitable - it is highly likely. Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.

Do you have any citation from any Commentary saying that pain is an integral part, or a station on the way to nibbana?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:29 pm

Hi Tilt,

I wish to make an amendment to my earlier post. There ARE practices that will inevitably lead to pain.........................

"I thought: 'Suppose that I, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, were to beat down, constrain, & crush my mind with my awareness.' So, clenching my teeth and pressing my tongue against the roof of my mouth, I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, & crush him, in the same way I beat down, constrained, & crushed my mind with my awareness. As I did so, sweat poured from my armpits. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, just as if a strong man were tightening a turban made of tough leather straps around my head... Extreme forces carved up my stomach cavity, just as if a butcher or his apprentice were to carve up the stomach cavity of an ox... There was an extreme burning in my body, just as if two strong men, grabbing a weaker man by the arms, were to roast & broil him over a pit of hot embers. And although tireless persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established, my body was aroused & uncalm because of the painful exertion. But the painful feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to take only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup.' So I took only a little food at a time, only a handful at a time of bean soup, lentil soup, vetch soup, or pea soup. My body became extremely emaciated. Simply from my eating so little, my limbs became like the jointed segments of vine stems or bamboo stems... My backside became like a camel's hoof... My spine stood out like a string of beads... My ribs jutted out like the jutting rafters of an old, run-down barn... The gleam of my eyes appeared to be sunk deep in my eye sockets like the gleam of water deep in a well... My scalp shriveled & withered like a green bitter gourd, shriveled & withered in the heat & the wind... The skin of my belly became so stuck to my spine that when I thought of touching my belly, I grabbed hold of my spine as well; and when I thought of touching my spine, I grabbed hold of the skin of my belly as well... If I urinated or defecated, I fell over on my face right there... Simply from my eating so little, if I tried to ease my body by rubbing my limbs with my hands, the hair — rotted at its roots — fell from my body as I rubbed, simply from eating so little.

"People on seeing me would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is black.' Other people would say, 'Gotama the contemplative isn't black, he's brown.' Others would say, 'Gotama the contemplative is neither black nor brown, he's golden-skinned.' So much had the clear, bright color of my skin deteriorated, simply from eating so little.

"I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html

The practices described above and others do lead INEVITABLY to pain - these practices were rejected by the Buddha.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby Alex123 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:16 pm

The stages of purification of insight are mentioned in the suttas such as MN24
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And in DN34 (or 33).

Furthermore it is quite possible that one the way to insight, there will be painful and uncomfortable sensations. These are just preliminary stages.

Nobody said that the path is always easy and blissful:

"And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow.
...
Thus the enlightened one, with mindfulness here established, not indulging in sensuality & evil, though it may be with pain, would abandon sensuality. They call him one who goes against the flow.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby legolas » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:The stages of purification of insight are mentioned in the suttas such as MN24
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

And in DN34 (or 33).

Furthermore it is quite possible that one the way to insight, there will be painful and uncomfortable sensations. These are just preliminary stages.

Nobody said that the path is always easy and blissful:

"And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow.
...
Thus the enlightened one, with mindfulness here established, not indulging in sensuality & evil, though it may be with pain, would abandon sensuality. They call him one who goes against the flow.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


In suttas such as............?
I actually held off answering robert hoping that someone would mention MN24. One sutta, one singular sutta, from which this whole framework is derived. There are thousands - sorry - THOUSANDS of suttas. Nowhere except this one sutta can be found any justification for the insight knowledges. My point still remains that some peoples interpretations of these knowledges insist that pain is a necessary ingredient for awakening.

As far as roberts...."Do you have any citation from any Commentary saying that pain is an integral part, or a station on the way to nibbana?"

:strawman: My question would be apart from MN24 are there any suttas that detail the stages of purification?
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby Alex123 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:01 pm

legolas wrote:My question would be apart from MN24 are there any suttas that detail the stages of purification?


Yes in DN34 as well.


‘‘katame nava dhammā bhāvetabbā? Nava pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgāni – sīlavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, cittavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, diṭṭhivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, kaṅkhāvitaraṇavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, maggāmaggañāṇadassana – visuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, ñāṇadassanavisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, paññāvisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ, vimuttivisuddhi pārisuddhipadhāniyaṅgaṃ. Ime nava dhammā bhāvetabbā.
PTS 3.288

Word purification (visuddhi) including those visuddhi nanas is mentioned ~124 times in 4 nikayas. And they are mentioned throughout many suttas under different words.

IMHO, just because the Buddha didn't say much certain words, it doesn't mean that He didn't teach the meaning of them. You can explain the same thing using different words on different occasions.

What some commentaries did, was to systematize the teaching and introduced fixed and precise terminology. Difference (if any) in words, doesn't mean the difference in meaning.
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:12 pm

Pain, physical and mental, can arise with vipassana practice (see below). But this is the first time I heard of pain as a indicator of an insight knowledge (suffering, fear yes, but not a sharp pain).

Furthermore, he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting
aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains
thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, a fever based on
mental qualities arises within his body
,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html

37. "So teaching, so proclaiming, O monks, I have been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans: 'A nihilist[38] is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'[39]
"As I am not as I do not teach, so have I been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans thus: 'A nihilist is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'
"What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

Moggallana, as he later said, attained sainthood by quick penetration (khippabhiñña), that is, in one week but his progress was difficult (dukkha-patipada) [I would translate this path via suffering- there was nothing difficult- he attained nibbana in two weeks], requiring the helpful prompting(sa-sankhara) of the Master. Sariputta, too, attained sainthood by quick penetration (in two weeks), but his progress was smooth (sukha-patipada); see Anguttara IV, 167-168).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el263.html

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted [some translate ‘nibbida’ as revulsion] with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released.


I think the majority of the path is quite pleasant. But it is often a reliable indicator that a person has seen difficult insight knowledges properly, when they express some emotion (is the form of sadness, fear) in line with the insight they should be experiencing.

But things like light, sharp pain, ..dare I mention...fluttering eyelids, are red herrings.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:36 pm

legolas wrote:However I really do think you are still missing my point, which is ..............pain is not inevitable - it is highly likely.
I have made that point:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7709&start=20

Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.
Maybe, but it is not likely one is not going to experience mental or physical pain throughout one's life. You don't practice when your sick or hurting? You don't practice when you are distressed? Then you are not practicing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Ñāṇa wrote: But having done numerous intensive retreats (up to 6 mo. in duration), my experience has been that intensive practice can run the full spectrum from times of elation and joy and gratitude to those of deep sadness, fear, boredom, and even physical pain. Over the years these extremes do begin to even out, but I doubt that anyone can intensively engage in this process without experiencing discomfort on various levels and shedding a few tears along the way.
Quite so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:40 pm

robert wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
It is as authentic as the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts.

Of course, it is part of the Tipitika.
Pretty much.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:43 pm

robertk wrote:
legolas wrote:Hi Tilt,

I can relate to similar experiences of mine to that which you detail above.
However I really do think you are still missing my point, which is ..............pain is not inevitable - it is highly likely. Pain is NOT an actual necessary or integral part of the awakening process as portrayed in the suttas, whilst it is an integral stage as it is portrayed in the nana's.

Do you have any citation from any Commentary saying that pain is an integral part, or a station on the way to nibbana?
Please point to the passages in these two links that you are refering to:

http://watbuddhaoregon.com/view_forums/ ... PIC_ID=171

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Before Nirvana Extremely painfull sensations.

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:46 pm

legolas wrote:Hi Tilt,

I wish to make an amendment to my earlier post. There ARE practices that will inevitably lead to pain. . . .The practices described above and others do lead INEVITABLY to pain - these practices were rejected by the Buddha.
That is nice, but obviously is not what I referring to, and I rather doubt that the two links


http://watbuddhaoregon.com/view_forums/ ... PIC_ID=171

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Pro ... gress.html

are referring to anything such as that. One does not need to create pain in one's practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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