Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
starter
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:19 am

Greetings!

I'm reading the following teaching again, and realized that the gaining of the "Dhamma eye" means stream entry, which is the second stage of enlightenment:

Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye [vision of Dhamma] arose within him, “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing.” [Ud 5.3 Kutthi Sutta The Leper]

This "whatever" and "all" includes the six sense sets, five aggregates and six elements as detailed in SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering as cited above. Interestingly, in this sutta, both volition and craving (that belong to the 4th aggregate) are listed:

"7) Volition regarding forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Volition regarding sounds … Volition regarding odours … Volition regarding tastes … Volition regarding tactile objects … Volition regarding mental phenomena
8) Craving for forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... Craving for sounds … Craving for odours … Craving for tastes … Craving for tactile objects … Craving for mental phenomena …"

One who has comprehended the impermanence of the "all" has also comprehended the first NT (Dhukka). One who has comprehended the impermanence of volition has also comprehended the impermanence of craving, which is the second and third NT (the arising and cessation of suffering). Although it seems that one who has comprehended the impermanence of the "all" (the first three NT) is already a stream-enterer ("One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer") without mentioning the comprehension of the fourth NT in SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering, I tend to think that such a noble disciple who has gained the "Dhamma eye" and the first fruit must have also comprehended the fourth NT, and he directly knows that has comprehended the first fourfold of the 4NT: ‘This is suffering’, ‘This is the arising of suffering’, ‘This is the cessation of suffering’, ‘This is the practice (path) leading to the cessation of suffering’. Before the leper obtained the "Dhamma eye", the Buddha
gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. . Logically the leper comprehended all the four and became an Awakened One.

I'd like to correct my previous thought "the obtaining of 'the Dhamma eye' would make the leper obtain the first stage of the enlightenment, not the second". It's wrong. The obtaining of 'the Dhamma eye' would make one obtain the second stage of the enlightenment, not the first.

The comprehension of the 4th NT ‘This is the practice (path) leading to the cessation of suffering’ might not mean the complete comprehension of the 8 path factors including how to practice each. Such comprehension might fall into the second fourfold of the 4NT:

"Now that to which “this is suffering” refers is to be fully known. Now that to which “this is the arising (origination) of suffering” refers (i.e. craving) is to be given up. Now that to which “this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering” refers (i.e. Emancipation) is to be experienced. Now that to which “this is the noble truth of the practice leading to the end of suffering” refers (i.e. the practice (path) itself) is to be developed". [from http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... ses-01.htm (with my notes and minor change)]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Metta to all!

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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby cooran » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:20 am

Hello all,

This previous thread may be of interest:

The arising of the Dhamma Eye
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10215

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby culaavuso » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:36 am

starter wrote:I'm reading the following teaching again, and realized that the gaining of the "Dhamma eye" means stream entry, which is the second stage of enlightenment:


The "Dhamma eye" refers to the first stage, Sotāpanna (stream entry). SN 13.1 directly says that obtaining the "Dhamma eye" is a state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes. AN 3.86 says that having at most seven lifetimes remaining is the result of breaking the first three fetters. MN 118 explains that while once returners, the second stage of enlightenment, have only broken through the first three fetters they have sufficiently weakened the next two fetters such that they will return to a human birth at most once more.

SN 13.1
SN 13.1: Nakhasikha Sutta wrote:In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.


AN 3.86
AN 3.86: Sekhin Sutta wrote:With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.


MN 118
MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta wrote:"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.


Additionally, a stream entrant discerns all four noble truths.

SN 48.53
SN 48.53: Sekha Sutta wrote:And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner'? There is the case where a monk is a learner. He discerns, as it actually is, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'


MN 2
MN 2: Sabbasava Sutta wrote:"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
...
"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

starter
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:30 pm

Hi culaavuso and chris,

Thanks for your helpful input. What I meant with the second stage of enlightenment is the stream entry (entered the N8P), while the first stage of enlightenment is gaining the faith on the Buddha and his teaching (becoming a faith follower and then a Dhamma follower, who have entered the path to stream entry). Sorry for the confusion.

To my understanding, the monastics who truly gained the faith on the Buddha and his teaching and left the household life are already faith followers starting their practice as "trainers" and following the Buddha's gradual teaching (starting from sila) to stream entry and higher. Those who haven't truly gained faith on the Buddha and his teaching should instead start from dana.

Metta to all!

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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Ananda26 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:38 pm

starter wrote:As I understand from MN 48 Kosambiya Sutta, the Buddha actually taught us the footprints of a Sotāpanna, and how to examine if we have indeed obtained that noble right view (of 4NT):

1) "Bhikkhus, what is that noble view that leads to the beyond and rightfully shows the destruction of unpleasantness to one who thinks logically. Here. Bhikkhus, the bhikkhu gone to a forest or to the root of a tree, or to an empty house reflects. Are there undispelled hindrances in me? Do they obstruct my mind, from knowing and seeing as it really is? Am I overcome by sensual lust, or is my mind hindered by them? Am I overcome by anger, or is my mind hindered by it? Am I overcome by sloth and torpor, or is my mind hindered by sloth and torpor? Am I overcome by restlessness and worry, or is my mind hindered by restlessness and worry? Is my mind overcome with doubts, about this world and the other world? Or am I with a dispute quarrelling, throwing rough words at others, is my mind hindered in this manner?"

The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary".

-- The first footprint of the fruit (the five hindrances are completely suppressed when realizing that view -- only a hindrance free mind can realize the truth).


2) "Again, the noble disciple reflects When I practise and develop this view much I experience internal appeasement [calming down], and internal extinction. This is the second noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The second footprint of the fruit [the practice of that view leads to peace]

3)"Again the noble disciple reflects. This view I have gained is it also the view of the recluses and brahmins of other sects.

Then he knows, this view with which I am endowed, is not shared by recluses and brahmins of other sects. This is the third noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The third footprint of the fruit

4) "Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain ...

This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The fourth footprint of the fruit

5) Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness of view? It is the unique characteristic of one come to righteousness view, to be greatly intent in completing any work high or low that has to be done for the co-associates in the holy life while remaining mindful in one’s high virtues, training, and high wisdom.

... Then he knows, I share this view, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed with that unigue characteristic. This is the fifth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary.

-- The fifth footprint of the fruit (never become negligent of one's own training

6) "Again, the noble disciple reflects I share this power, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed with that power.What is that power with which the one come to righteousness of view is endowed? One come to righteousness of view listens to the Teaching attending carefully to take the essential with the mind well concentrated.

Then he knows, I’m endowed with the power of one come to righteousness of view. This is the sixth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The sixth footprint of the fruit

7) "Again, the noble disciple reflects.I share this power, with those come to righteousness of view. I’m endowed, with that power What is that power with which the one come to righteousness of view is endowed? It is the power of one come to righteousness of view to listen to the Teaching taught by the Blessed One and gain the meanings, experience the Teaching and experience the joy.

Then he knows, with whatever power the one, come to righteousness of view is endowed, I too share that power. This is the seventh noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

-- The seventh footprint of the fruit

"When the noble disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics, he is ready to realize the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching."

Metta to all,

Starter


With the abandoning of 3 fetters one has become a stream winner, no more subject to rebirth in hell, no more subject to rebirth as an animal, no more subject to rebirth as a peta ghost, fixed in destiny with enlightenment as destination.


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