Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
VictoryInTruth
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:07 am
Location: Deva Realm

Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by VictoryInTruth »

Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

Is this vibrational quality of matter a denser form of energy? Does everything in the universe(s) consist of this vibrational energy...even an object such as a rock but on a denser level?

Thank you for your patience with my beginner questions.

:anjali:
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Not being an altogether simple question to answer, I'm going to move this from Discovering Theravada to the Meditation section for you.

(In case you're interested, the reason I decided to redirect to the Meditation forum is because I believe the question is best answered in terms of what you observe, analyse and experience... rather than being regarded as an objective scientific or ontological proposition. If others disagree we can move it elsewhere.)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Ben »

Greetings VictoryInTruth

From a non-scientist's point of view...
All matter consists of particles which are in a constant state of flux and movement. This is the vibrational characteristic of matter/rupa.
If you wish to examine the Elements in more detail, I suggest you read Ledi Sayadaw's Vipassana Dipani (Manual of Insight) but its not a work intended for beginners.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by daverupa »

The point, surely, must be that no matter what description is given for the fundamental parts of nature, that same description applies to anything we might like to call Ours, and therefore, a Buddhist knows that whatever other characteristics it has, it has three in particular, and the only way to see those for oneself is to do anapanasati rather than speculate as to other characteristics.

This response may not be appropriate if the thread is moved to another category.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by mikenz66 »

VictoryInTruth wrote:Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.
I prefer to think of the four great elements as properties, rather than building blocks. Our experience of matter may be classified according to it's hardness (or softness), cohesion (or lack thereof), hotness (or coldness), and motion/support (or not).
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dh%C4%81tu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Suttas on meditative practice, such as the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; discuss how the elements may be used to analyse experience.
See also: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... th%C4%81na" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by rowyourboat »

The 'vibrational quality' that you mention is nothing but consciousness arising and passing away at great rapidity. You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.

The qualities of a perception of form (rupasanna) such as hardness, heat etc can be detected in different ways in the different sense bases. It is important to keep in mind that the Buddha did NOT declare an existing world (kaccayanagotta sutta). He only saw experience arising due to the existence of ignorance. Rupa (or should I say the experience of rupa) should be seen in this light.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
User avatar
icyteru
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:11 am
Contact:

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by icyteru »

Yes. Even rock has electron that always moving around proton.
The most complete english tipitaka on the internet world. http://realtruthlife.blogspot.com .
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Ben »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
Thank you Keith!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
haplo09
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:24 pm

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by haplo09 »

The short answer, maybe yes.
The best example i can think of is pair production.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

I really like Mike's response.
Lets make sure we keep this within an experiential domain. Theoretical constructs are not useful in this situation.
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by rowyourboat »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science because science, especially physics have moved on from a Newtonian mechanistic view of the world. Quantum mechanics now seems to famously prove the idea that consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena (google double slit experiment), different planes of existences are possible and that everything pops in and out if existence at immense frequencies. This is not Buddhism per se but comes incredibly close to 'proving' some of it. I found 'what the bleep do we know' (a DVD on the topic) quite a good take on this issue (while not being specifically Buddhist).

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you are saying is completely pointless. And it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
Plus, you are claiming something that has not been proven. I don't distrust science: I do distrust those who claim a new understanding based on a faulty understanding of the real meaning of science.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:I'm sorry to tell you this, but what you are saying is completely pointless. And it has nothing to do with Buddhism.
Plus, you are claiming something that has not been proven. I don't distrust science: I do distrust those who claim a new understanding based on a faulty understanding of the real meaning of science.
Agreed. There is no need to try to tie Buddhism to science.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by mikenz66 »

rowyourboat wrote: I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science because science, especially physics have moved on from a Newtonian mechanistic view of the world....
Because for those of us who actually work with quantum mechanics most of what is written about conciousness and QM is just silly (including a lot of stuff written by famous scientists stepping out of their area of expertise...).

:anjali:
Mike
Post Reply