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Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:13 am
by rowyourboat
How do you get to a place where you won't break precepts even upon the threat of death?

With metta

Matheesha

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:21 am
by Zom
I think this is impossible to say.
You have to be in such a situation to tell if you will or will not.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:38 am
by Goofaholix
rowyourboat wrote:How do you get to a place where you won't break precepts even upon the threat of death?
Why would you want to?

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:42 am
by Ben
rowyourboat wrote:How do you get to a place where you won't break precepts even upon the threat of death?

With metta

Matheesha

Sotapatti magga & phalla.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:01 pm
by reflection
A sotapanna is still deluded/attached in some ways, so I think -although it would be an ocassional slip- he/she can still break the precepts. It will however not be with the full intention of lying/stealing etc. I guess one has to be fully enlightened to never break a precept anymore.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:09 pm
by Modus.Ponens
I think it was Dipa Ma who said that she was bound by the precepts but that sometimes, she could lie out of force of habbit, "unintentionaly". I interpret this as meaning that it's not a completely black or white situation.

If I'm not remembering it correctly, please correct me.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:22 pm
by manas
.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:25 am
by Viscid
Why are the precepts worth dying over?

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:33 am
by Goofaholix
reflection wrote:I guess one has to be fully enlightened to never break a precept anymore.
There must come a time when the training wheels are no longer needed and what they sought to teach us is fully integrated, otherwise the training is not very good.

We can dream up unlikely scenarios, usually about how to effectively deal with people of murderous intent without breaking the precepts ourselves, but if one needs to consult a manual of case law or idealistic zen stories in difficult situations one hasn't really integrated dhamma.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:41 am
by Goofaholix
Viscid wrote:Why are the precepts worth dying over?
Indeed.

Even for monastics the worse can happen to you if you break one of the 227 precepts is you are deemed to no longer be a monk, yet it seems some lay people find virtue in self sacrifice. Of course the kammic consequences will follow, but you just have to take the consequences and learn from your mistakes.

In the unlikely eevent you are ever threatened with death if you don't eat a cupcake that you are not sure is yours to eat... just eat it already.

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:32 am
by chownah
reflection wrote:A sotapanna is still deluded/attached in some ways, so I think -although it would be an ocassional slip- he/she can still break the precepts. It will however not be with the full intention of lying/stealing etc. I guess one has to be fully enlightened to never break a precept anymore.
To the extent that precepts are part of the raft then when "one" is fully enlightened "one" discards the raft and this means the precepts I guess......so an arahant does not follow precepts I guess....
chownah

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:51 am
by cooran
rowyourboat wrote:How do you get to a place where you won't break precepts even upon the threat of death?

With metta

Matheesha
Hello Matheesha,

I think you have to become an arahant -

AN 9.7 PT Sutava Sutta: To Sutavan
[....................
It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse. [4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie. [5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.

"[6] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on desire. [7] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on aversion. [8] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on fear. [9] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on delusion.

"Both before and now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles."
.......................]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:33 am
by Sam Vara
If one knew for certain that the threat of death was real, then would non-compliance be suicide and therefore breaking the first precept?

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:04 pm
by rowyourboat
Thank you for the replies so far. I came across this:
Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What do you make of this?

with metta

Matheesha

Re: Unbreakable precepts?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:28 pm
by rowyourboat
I may have found the answer I was looking for:
"There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had read that a stream entrants training in virtue (precepts) was complete with nothing more left to do- so I was confused Aston how he could still sometimes break the precepts. The above sutta (new on accesstoinsight!) clearly shows that complete in training refers to the 'training rules basic to the holy life'. Now if someone could specify what those are, it would be really helpful.

Incidentally I don't see precepts as training wheels - that would be a good way to fool ourselves of this advanced practice IMO. The gradual path gets deeper and deeper at each turning of the wheel, unless you are content to swim forever in the shallows.

:namaste:

With metta

Matheesha