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Sotapanna's Virtue - Dhamma Wheel

Sotapanna's Virtue

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Zom
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Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:57 pm

In Ven. Pa-Auk's Sayadaw book about Kamma I've read out that it is impossible that a stream-enterer would deliberately kill any living being, steal anything, tell any lie, commit adultery.

As far as I know, suttas only say that it is impossible for him to kill father/mother/arahant, split sangha, spill Buddha's blood. That's it.
And, suttas say, that it is impossible for an arahant to kill, steal, so on...

So, from where does Ven. Sayadaw took that information on such an impossibility about sotapanna? :reading: :spy: :quote:
Last edited by Zom on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby David2 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:22 pm

Well, even for many people who are not sotapannas (or "farther") it is impossible to kill imo.

So I can't imagine how a sotapanna could kill.

(Sorry that I can't offer a sutta reference.)

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:41 pm

The idea is that any such action (no matter how trifling) is impossible in any circumstances at all. While, actually, sotapanna still has delusion, lust and hatred. Yes, suttas are correct to say, that these things are impossible in any circumstances at all for an arahant, who has no more delusion, lust and hatred. But I think this is quite doubtful for a stream-enterer (who actually stands only at the very start of the Path). And so I think that in certain circumstances he is able to kill, steal or tell a lie.
Last edited by Zom on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby reflection » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:43 pm


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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 pm

Yes, thanks, but this sutta doesn't say that "it is impossible" for him. And, for example, there are suttas where Buddha directly speaks about "an impossibility".

For example:

"[1] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to intentionally deprive a living being of life. [2] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to take, in the manner of stealing, what is not given. [3] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to engage in sexual intercourse. [4] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to tell a conscious lie. [5] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to consume stored-up sensual things as he did before, when he was a householder.

....

"Both before and now I say to you that an arahant monk whose mental fermentations are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis, cannot possibly transgress these nine principles."
(nothing like that had I read about a stream-enterer)

"he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue" - this can easily mean that generally he is of such virtue and keeps these rules.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:01 pm

At that thread Retro posed this Ven. Nyanavira quotation:

Nanavira Thera wrote:I venture to think that if you actually read through the whole of the Vinaya and the Suttas you would be aghast at some of the things a real live sotāpanna is capable of. As a bhikkhu he is capable of suicide (but so also is an arahat—I have already quoted examples); he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules (M. 48: i,323-5; A. III,85: i,231-2); he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthisāriputta—A. VI,60: iii,392-9); he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy, stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness (A. II,16: i,96). As a layman he is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of the five precepts (though as soon as he has done so he recognizes his fault and repairs the breach, unlike the puthujjana who is content to leave the precepts broken).

...where he speaks about "is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of the five precepts". Who knows what is the canonical source for this his statement? (if there is any at all). :quote: :spy:

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:25 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:52 pm


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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:28 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:32 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:20 am


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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby reflection » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:10 am

We can draw a logical conclusion: Because a sotapanna understands karma, it is very unlikely they will do something like intentionally breaking the moral precepts. Out of delusion, it may happen accidentally or when very unmindful, but not un purpose and certainly not regularly. This is why the Sekhin Sutta says they are "wholly accomplished in virtue". But killing is one that is hard to do "on a slip", so I guess does not happen.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:51 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Zom » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:22 pm


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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Virgo » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:27 pm



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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:32 pm

Image




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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:44 pm

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:59 pm

MP,

Here it is:



Kevin,

Thanks for reminding us of the Nanda Sutta; that is a good example that the letter should not always be used and that there can be some skillful means for example in not telling the complete truth on some rare occasions.
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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Virgo » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:00 pm



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Re: Sotapanna's Virtue

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:20 pm

Thank you both. :)
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)


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