Ordained people need to eat too.danieLion wrote:This is only a dilemma for those who believe they need a teacher; but even then, there are plenty of good free ones. IMO, ordained teachers are more trustworthy because they don't charge. So, if you feel you can't live without a teacher, find an ordained one and prevent the issue of payment from even arising.
the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
- Goofaholix
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
I recently attended a retreat that was led by a lay teacher. While the cost of the food and accommodation was a set cost, any payment to the teacher was by dana. The teacher gave a very inspired talk explaining that Dhamma is not part of the orthodox economy, but part of the economy of the gift (dana) that was central to Dhamma and which can never have a price attached, as I'm sure most of us are aware is because it is essentially priceless.
This is an excellent example of how teaching the Dhamma needs to be approached IMO. By lay teachers making people aware that they survive by dana, you will find most people are more than willing to give generously, and importantly it enables people with limited funds not to be excluded. Once a price is put on Dhamma, it's on the slippery slope to becoming a commodity and losing it's purity.
This is an excellent example of how teaching the Dhamma needs to be approached IMO. By lay teachers making people aware that they survive by dana, you will find most people are more than willing to give generously, and importantly it enables people with limited funds not to be excluded. Once a price is put on Dhamma, it's on the slippery slope to becoming a commodity and losing it's purity.
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Exactly. Anyone who thinks that the Dhamma is provided without someone paying is kidding themselves. At typical monasteries in the West the immigrant community (Thai, Sri Lankan, etc) provides enough support so it really doesn't matter to them whether those doing retreats contribute anything. Which is great, since different people have different capabilities for paying.Goofaholix wrote: Ordained people need to eat too.
Mike
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Hi Mike,mikenz66 wrote:Exactly. Anyone who thinks that the Dhamma is provided without someone paying is kidding themselves.
I don't think anyone is saying that there should not be some form of payment for Dhamma, but that this transaction needs to occur by dana and not be part of the orthodox worldly economy of set prices.
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Buddha refused to give Dhamma for food.
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
How do you know, Zom?Zom wrote:Buddha refused to give Dhamma for food.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- retrofuturist
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
It's in the suttas.Ben wrote:How do you know, Zom?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Thank you Retro, I was just encouraging Zom to provide a citation with his comment rather than just an unsupported assertion of what the Buddha did or did not do.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
It's in the suttas.Ben wrote:How do you know, Zom?
Metta,
Retro.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
There are many suttas where the Buddha accepts an invitation to a meal, has the meal, then teaches the Dhamma.
See, for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
See, for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
- retrofuturist
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Greetings Mike,
Exactly - a gift is offered, and then a gift is offered in return.
Metta,
Retro.
Exactly - a gift is offered, and then a gift is offered in return.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
But there is a fairly clear expectation that the invitation means to come and have a meal then have a chat about Dhamma...
And as for refusing food, is this the Sutta that is being referred to?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It doesn't really seem to be refusing to take food in exchange for teaching. It's a bit more complex than that...
But perhaps there are other suttas being alluded to...
Mike
And as for refusing food, is this the Sutta that is being referred to?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It doesn't really seem to be refusing to take food in exchange for teaching. It's a bit more complex than that...
But perhaps there are other suttas being alluded to...
Mike
- retrofuturist
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Greetings,
Metta,
Retro.
Yes, there are... and that's not one of them.mikenz66 wrote:But perhaps there are other suttas being alluded to...
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- Cittasanto
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
lack of charge does not mean they are trustworthy, or know what they are talking about.danieLion wrote:This is only a dilemma for those who believe they need a teacher; but even then, there are plenty of good free ones. IMO, ordained teachers are more trustworthy because they don't charge. So, if you feel you can't live without a teacher, find an ordained one and prevent the issue of payment from even arising.
Goodwill
Daniel
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
OK well it would be good to refer to some then, since I can only recall ones like the one I linked to where the Buddha accepts an invitation for a meal and a chat...retrofuturist wrote:Yes, there are... and that's not one of them.mikenz66 wrote:But perhaps there are other suttas being alluded to...
Mike
- retrofuturist
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Re: the ethics of lay teachers who charge money
Greetings Mike,
Metta,
Retro.
Sorry, I can't be bothered digging around the suttas just to prove this to you. If you care enough to look, the general theme is that someone who wasn't a follower of the Dhamma is convinced by the Buddha on matters pertaining to the Dhamma and then they make offerings which are rejected because they are interpreted by the Buddha as 'payment' for received teaching. That is not the basis upon which the Buddhadhamma is taught.mikenz66 wrote:OK well it would be good to refer to some then
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."