If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.Modus.Ponens wrote:That's not the real issue. The real issue is: will you kill someone? A simple (real) story: a man went to a gas station and got into a fight with a second man. the second man, having a gun in his trunk, went for it and killed the other man. He imediatly repented and kneeled down crying.marc108 wrote: you are painting unlikely extremes and taking what i said out of context. again this boils down to will you protect yourself if you need to, with or without a gun? that's the real issue here.
my understanding of how the Buddha presented Kamma does not include that having the ability to protect oneself will create the conditions that one would be more likely to need to protect oneself.
If you don't have a gun, you won't shoot somebody.
should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Thank-you for correcting my spelling!tiltbillings wrote:Seems, not seams, and I do grasp your point; however, you are expressing your opinion, which is fine, but like every opinion expressed here, it is not the arbiter of what any particular Buddhist other than you must do. As a practicing Buddhist longer than you have been alive, I see things a bit differently.
Have I said everyone should follow suit? I am sure I have mentioned misrepresenting before?
but you are not saying why you see things differently, not that length of time practicing is relevant, gray hair & all.
Can you say why you see things differently?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Life experiences.Cittasanto wrote:
Can you say why you see things differently?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Geewizz, it seems that the possible use of guns in violent acts is enough to make them taboo for Buddhists. I'd like to point out this famous homicide case from the U.S.
Over broad reasoning from this case would have strange consequence. But walking's good for you, so don't worry. And in case you think it's an isolated incident, google "woman runs over husband".
As for "the manufacturer's intended use" somehow making it inproper to own or use a gun, I'd point to a counter example, like oxycontin. Oxycontin was not intended to be used for recreation like a 'hill-billy heroin,' yet that is what happened, leading to the discontinuation of that drug. Likewise, guns may be intended by manufacturers as an implement of death, but that says little of how they can be, and often are, used in the world. A gun can also be used for purely recreational purposes.
Over broad reasoning from this case would have strange consequence. But walking's good for you, so don't worry. And in case you think it's an isolated incident, google "woman runs over husband".
As for "the manufacturer's intended use" somehow making it inproper to own or use a gun, I'd point to a counter example, like oxycontin. Oxycontin was not intended to be used for recreation like a 'hill-billy heroin,' yet that is what happened, leading to the discontinuation of that drug. Likewise, guns may be intended by manufacturers as an implement of death, but that says little of how they can be, and often are, used in the world. A gun can also be used for purely recreational purposes.
Last edited by Reductor on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
hey tilt,tiltbillings wrote:But what you asking me to do, is be the change in the world you want to see. I do not buy the necessity of your line of reasoning in regard to my owning a gun.jason c wrote:
quite simply, be the change in the world that you want to see.
i grew up with guns in my life, my dad would pay me a dollar for every box of shotgun shells i would make. endless hours in the basement playing with gunpowder and shot, i loved it! later i took my hunting licence test, got my firearms aquisition permit and bought some guns. took up skeet shooting. and started hunting. i never took to the hunting, loved being out in nature but didn't have any desire to kill anything. in my house there was no gun safe and my brother and i would play with my dads shotguns growing up. we use to point them out the window and pretend to shoot things.
target shooting with my friends, and time spent at the gun club led me to understand that these guns are not toys, many of my friends were injured playing with guns, one member even got killed when his shotgun exploded.
i do not want to force my beliefs on others or tell you what you can or cannot do, i simply wish to create a dialogue where we can debate this issue, many people seem to have hardened views on this subject and if discussing them softens them a little great, if one less person takes to playing with guns great, if one person puts down their gun great, as long as the choices we make are informed and come from as much wisdom as possible, this is the purpose of these debates to spread our own personal insights on this matter.
so, yes i will be the change that i want to see, but i have no power over what you ultimately decide to do.
metta,
jason
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Jason,
I'm sorry to hear about that. Accidents happen. Kids should never play with guns. Teens the same, without adult supervision.
There can not be any real dialogue unless people accept the fact that guns, weapons, are a necessity. I see, myself, and I could be wrong, pure pacifism. That is not what the Buddha taught. There will always be a use for them, guns. War is ever a shadow looming over every nation. And so long as it is possible for commonfolk, scum, to have them, we will need them to fight back. And even then, the question of, what about those who get them illegally? Like say in the UK.
Guns will always exist, the only change we can hope for, is proper training for their uses. To show people all other ways of self defense, so that they can exhaust all other options before being forced to use it on another life.
Guns are not going to go away so long as the world is divided by many nations.
Guns are in the hands of deviants, throughout the entire world. Fists cannot stop a bullet.
Pure and total pacifism will only lead to tyranny and oppression. And is an excuse for cowardice.
Not everyone is a Buddhist.
Islamic Terrorists are real. They do not care for peace talks, only the death of the Kafoor. I do not need to cite evidence for that. And it is not only Islamic, there are people like this everywhere. To deny the use of guns, is to deny logic.
I'm sorry to hear about that. Accidents happen. Kids should never play with guns. Teens the same, without adult supervision.
There can not be any real dialogue unless people accept the fact that guns, weapons, are a necessity. I see, myself, and I could be wrong, pure pacifism. That is not what the Buddha taught. There will always be a use for them, guns. War is ever a shadow looming over every nation. And so long as it is possible for commonfolk, scum, to have them, we will need them to fight back. And even then, the question of, what about those who get them illegally? Like say in the UK.
Guns will always exist, the only change we can hope for, is proper training for their uses. To show people all other ways of self defense, so that they can exhaust all other options before being forced to use it on another life.
Guns are not going to go away so long as the world is divided by many nations.
Guns are in the hands of deviants, throughout the entire world. Fists cannot stop a bullet.
Pure and total pacifism will only lead to tyranny and oppression. And is an excuse for cowardice.
Not everyone is a Buddhist.
Islamic Terrorists are real. They do not care for peace talks, only the death of the Kafoor. I do not need to cite evidence for that. And it is not only Islamic, there are people like this everywhere. To deny the use of guns, is to deny logic.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
- Cittasanto
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Nothing substantial from a practical standpoint of the Theravada position then?tiltbillings wrote:Life experiences.Cittasanto wrote:
Can you say why you see things differently?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Dialogue is good, but in reading in what you just wrote here it seems that the only acceptable "softening" of positions is to come from the side of the gun owner. That is not really dialogue.jason c wrote: i simply wish to create a dialogue where we can debate this issue, many people seem to have hardened views on this subject and if discussing them softens them a little great, if one less person takes to playing with guns great, if one person puts down their gun great, as long as the choices we make are informed and come from as much wisdom as possible, this is the purpose of these debates to spread our own personal insights on this matter.
so, yes i will be the change that i want to see, but i have no power over what you ultimately decide to do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Yes. A gun is simply inanimate object, lacking a "self," and how they are used is dependent upon the user's motivation. All of this has already been stated in various ways at length.Cittasanto wrote:Nothing substantial from a practical standpoint of the Theravada position then?tiltbillings wrote:Life experiences.Cittasanto wrote:
Can you say why you see things differently?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
He has life experience. With long years, seeing suffering in many different forms, comes wisdom. I am not sticking up for him, persay. But for the fact that the Buddha said himself not to follow his teachings like a strict doctrine, with no room for play. You want something that the Tipitaka cannot give you. Because only being logical and rational in your thinking, in your deep looking at this particular case, will bring the true answer.Cittasanto wrote:Nothing substantial from a practical standpoint of the Theravada position then?tiltbillings wrote:Life experiences.Cittasanto wrote:
Can you say why you see things differently?
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Going by this rationale, you would not have any objections if all Buddhist households own a dirty nuclear bomb with a 10 second timer. It would look good as a living room ornament right?tiltbillings wrote:A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Wow... Just... Wow...pilgrim wrote:Going by this rationale, you would not have any objections if all Buddhist households own a dirty nuclear bomb with a 10 second timer. It would look good as a living room ornament right?tiltbillings wrote:A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
Everything that makes you, you, is the result of your Environment (Society, Culture, Family, Friends, Etc), Genetics/Biology (Your brain which makes the mind possible, Inborn diseases such as Down Syndrome, or even Psociopathy, etc), Thoughts (Everything you think affects your mind, and the person you are), Speech (Same as thoughts, but words affect your environment as well), Actions (Same as Speech), and the Elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Space, and Time).
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
Hi Bodhisvasti
I will decide what I want thank-you
I will decide what I want thank-you
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
When you have an actual equivalent comparison, we can talk.pilgrim wrote:Going by this rationale, you would not have any objections if all Buddhist households own a dirty nuclear bomb with a 10 second timer. It would look good as a living room ornament right?tiltbillings wrote:A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?
pilgrim wrote:Going by this rationale, you would not have any objections if all Buddhist households own a dirty nuclear bomb with a 10 second timer. It would look good as a living room ornament right?
We may have jumped the shark.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3