should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes. A gun is simply inanimate object, lacking a "self," and how they are used is dependent upon the user's motivation. All of this has already been stated in various ways at length.
well as already pointed out, a gun does have related perceptions
Those are perceptions brought to it, not inherent in it.
and fear of harm & death is aroused by a gun, due to its intended and used purpose
I do not use my gun for harm, death, or fear, and that is not its intended purpose.
but that is where I will leave it, it is still an individual choice as to what is appropriate.
Good idea and yes it is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.
That's silly. Obviously, owning a gun is different from having a knife or a club (or your hands). Guns revolutionized the way wars are fought and there's a reason for it: they are way more likely to kill. You don't see soldiers going to battle with golf clubs!

This is assuming that theravadin buddhists are conscious objectors. If not, then owning a gun to protect yourself is a possible way to deal with threats.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Ben
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Ben »

SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Other than going over the same ground repeatedly, do we have anything new to say here?
Practicing Buddhists shouldn't talk about guns. :D
Why?
I'm not trying to be flippant. But I think its worthwhile re-examining or questioning our own assumptions regarding, what is for some, an emotionally charged issue.

Like some here - I just don't get the gun culture in the US. Everyone arming themselves to the teeth out of fear creates the sort of problems that people buy guns try to protect themselves against. From my, perhaps limited, point of view - it looks like a catch 22. Perhaps my attitude is the result of living in a society where there is a very high degree of gun control and regulation.

On the other side of the coin is the valid premise that guns and bows can be used for worthwhile recreational purposes. I agree with Tilt and those who have said that "intention is key". We lay down the club and blade when we have laid down the intention to use those objects to harm others.
Anyway, they're just my thoughts.
kind regards,

Ben
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SDC
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by SDC »

Ben wrote:
SDC wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Other than going over the same ground repeatedly, do we have anything new to say here?
Practicing Buddhists shouldn't talk about guns. :D
Why?
Complete sarcasm, Ben.

I actually thought this was a good topic. Shows how different we all think despite our common pursuit.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto »

tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: well as already pointed out, a gun does have related perceptions
Those are perceptions brought to it, not inherent in it.
and fear of harm & death is aroused by a gun, due to its intended and used purpose
I do not use my gun for harm, death, or fear, and that is not its intended purpose.
seriously?
a - we are saying the same thing.
b - I was talking about original, not your purpose.
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...
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Cittasanto »

Ben wrote: On the other side of the coin is the valid premise that guns and bows can be used for worthwhile recreational purposes. I agree with Tilt and those who have said that "intention is key". We lay down the club and blade when we have laid down the intention to use those objects to harm others.
Anyway, they're just my thoughts.
kind regards,

Ben
I don't get the gun culture either, but...
I would go further and say it is only laid down when we no longer want to pick them up, because of the perceptions of others fear can still arise in them.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.
That's silly. Obviously, owning a gun is different from having a knife or a club (or your hands). Guns revolutionized the way wars are fought and there's a reason for it: they are way more likely to kill. You don't see soldiers going to battle with golf clubs!
What is silly is your third and fourth sentences. A gun can do nothing until it is picked up by the hands of the individual who is going to use it.
This is assuming that theravadin buddhists are conscious objectors. If not, then owning a gun to protect yourself is a possible way to deal with threats.
This Theravadin Buddhist was a card carrying, state recognized conscientious objector, which is what I assume you mean by "conscious objectors," during the draft era of the late 60's and early to mid 70's. Owning a gun and being a conscientious objector are not contradictory.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: well as already pointed out, a gun does have related perceptions
Those are perceptions brought to it, not inherent in it.
and fear of harm & death is aroused by a gun, due to its intended and used purpose
I do not use my gun for harm, death, or fear, and that is not its intended purpose.
seriously?
a - we are saying the same thing.
b - I was talking about original, not your purpose.
The point is that gun has no purpose until it is picked up.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cittasanto wrote:, because of the perceptions of others fear can still arise in them.
Then you do not stick guns in their faces.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by pilgrim »

tiltbillings wrote:
pilgrim wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A gun being a piece of steel and a bit of wood or plastic, has no intention. Why guns came to be does not mean that is how any particular gun must be used.
Going by this rationale, you would not have any objections if all Buddhist households own a dirty nuclear bomb with a 10 second timer. It would look good as a living room ornament right?
When you have an actual equivalent comparison, we can talk.
The object may be different but the rationale is the same.
Edit: Just as you used the pointy stick as a benign example, I just moved the argument to the other extreme to point out the flaw in it.
I think there are situations where Buddhists could own guns, like for harmless sport as you pointed out, but I disagree that a gun is no different from a pointy stick. With great power comes great responsibility, and for a practicing Buddhist the consideration he must give to the idea must be considerable.
Last edited by pilgrim on Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

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rowboat wrote:Image

:candle:

The weapons industry is an unsupportable evil. In the holy life there is no place for a gun.
Worth repeating.
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It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If you do not have hands, you will not hold a gun, a knife, a club, or use your hands themselves to kill someone.
That's silly. Obviously, owning a gun is different from having a knife or a club (or your hands). Guns revolutionized the way wars are fought and there's a reason for it: they are way more likely to kill. You don't see soldiers going to battle with golf clubs!
What is silly is your third and fourth sentences. A gun can do nothing until it is picked up by the hands of the individual who is going to use it.
I don't see anything silly in them. :shrug:

By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
tiltbillings wrote:
This is assuming that theravadin buddhists are conscious objectors. If not, then owning a gun to protect yourself is a possible way to deal with threats.
This Theravadin Buddhist was a card carrying, state recognized conscientious objector, which is what I assume you mean by "conscious objectors," during the draft era of the late 60's and early to mid 70's. Owning a gun and being a conscientious objector are not contradictory.
Happy to know a fellow concientious objector (that's what I meant, my english has its flaws). :smile:

They are not contraditory, but are certainly negatively correlated. I remember the story you told about a doctor who was serving in a war, and was a conscientious objector, and in the heat of the moment he killed another person (I don't remember if it was self deffense or other reason). Had there not been a gun there, he would not have killed. The problem with having guns is as exemplified in this and the other story I told: a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment. Not having them is better if you are following the first precept to its ultimate consequences.

This is a very american thing. Here in europe most countries put so many barriers on owning a gun that there's praticaly noone with a gun. Here the question is not "should a buddhist own a gun?", but "should a civilian own a gun?".
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

pilgrim wrote: The object may be different but the rationale is the same. Often, one has to push the argument to the extreme to see the flaw in it.
You pushed it over the edge, down the cliff and it died, which is the only flaw that was apparent.
I think there are situations where Buddhists could own guns, like for harmless sport as you pointed out, but I disagree that a gun is no different from a pointy stick.
They become implements of harm by virtue of how they are handled.
With great power comes great responsibility, and for a practicing Buddhist the consideration he must give to the idea must be considerable.
And no one here, I would hope, would disagree with that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote: By that logic, women could wear cleavages in temples. There's nothing inherently wrong with cleavages. Yet they are banned from the temples.
That has to do cultural mores rather than any objective wrongness with seeing bits of boobs, or whole boobs, for that matter.
. . . a gun can be a temptation in the heat of the moment.
So can a knife, a rock, push down the stairs . . . .
but "should a civilian own a gun?".
That is a different thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: should a practicing buddhist own a gun?

Post by rowboat »

tiltbillings: They become implements of by virtue of how they are handled.
This is gibberish. What are you trying to say?
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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