Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

tiltbillings wrote:

Cittasanto wrote: the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.

And this has what to do with what? Some people are fearful of thunder. I have a friend who is terrified of frog and the sounds they make. I shoud not own a gun because there are people out there who are fearful of the sound of a gun?

No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)

Doshin wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

-So imagine a real life situation: you're a doctor serving in a war, treating a patient inside a tent. You're far from the door. An enemy soldier comes inside with his gun down. Now split this scenario in 3.

1- you have a gun
2- you have a knife
3- you have a rock

In which of these scenarios does the enemy soldier get killed? Can you still equate having a gun to having a rock?

And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.

Soldiers are trained to instinctively kill every threat. So if he sees you reach for a gun, he would kill you before thinking (that's his training). If he sees doctors uniforms and you with your hands up, he is much less likely to kill you. I don't think you stand a chance against a professional soldier pointing a gun at you, if you are a doctor reaching for a gun.

Even if you get the chance to kill him, he probably just is one in a big group of enemy soldiers; and their next step would probably be to just throw some handgrenades into your tent.

These things such this imagenary stuff are absurd. In the real world there have been 1-AO status individuals who have served for moral/religious reasons as unarmed medics who have in dire situations picked up a weapon to protect their wounded compatriots and themselves against an attacking enemy. The Vietcong was not big on taking prisoners during heavy firefights.

Cittasanto wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

Cittasanto wrote: the simple fact that hearing gun fire can be frightening for people, same way fireworks are frightening to animals when they go off, even if they can't see them.

And this has what to do with what? Some people are fearful of thunder. I have a friend who is terrified of frog and the sounds they make. I shoud not own a gun because there are people out there who are fearful of the sound of a gun?

No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)

Again, that is your opinion. I prefer my opinion. Because I own a gun and I use it occasionally to put holes in tin cans does not mean I am not established in walking a path of peace.

Ben wrote:

Cittasanto wrote:surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear

I agree, but there is a limit to how much one can take responsibility for the mind-states of others.
If one is a member of a gun club and one's gun is locked and only used at the gun club range under the regulations of the gun club then I believe that person is being responsible.
kind regards,

Ben

Yes, there is only so much one can do, and that does sound responcible, however, what is the need to use, or have a devise which only has a destructive purpose as a practicing Buddhist?

Hi Cittasanto,

Cittasanto wrote:

Ben wrote:

Cittasanto wrote:surely practicing buddhists should be eliminating fear

I agree, but there is a limit to how much one can take responsibility for the mind-states of others.
If one is a member of a gun club and one's gun is locked and only used at the gun club range under the regulations of the gun club then I believe that person is being responsible.
kind regards,

Ben

Yes, there is only so much one can do, and that does sound responcible, however, what is the need to use, or have a devise which only has a destructive purpose as a practicing Buddhist?

Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

And here is your Heather Fell (Silver medalist)
Not very destructive, unless you consider the perforation of paper targets destructive!
kind regards,

Ben

Cittasanto. Do you think Buddhism can survive on pacifism alone? If your Sangha is attacked by men bent only on your destruction, where they want nothing but the death of your religion, would you watch your people die? Can Buddhism survive that way? Judaism was under attack by the Nazis, and every jew would have been killed if it weren't for military intervention, do you deny that?

Buddhists are supposed to go beyond Dualistic thought, and see things for what they are. Here is things as they are.

Genocide exists. Terrorism exists. Situations where peaceful resolutions will simply 'not work', exist. Oppression due to the lack of military training/access to weaponry in the masses, exists.

I honestly want your opinion.

Do you deny those circumstances exist?

Do you honestly believe pacifism will solve those problems?

Would you watch your loved ones be hurt by weaponry, when you have access to it yourself, can end it, and choose not to use it?

I really do want your honest answers to all three of those questions.

Ben wrote:
Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

And here is your Heather Fell (Silver medalist)

fellshooting.jpg

Not very destructive, unless you consider the perforation of paper targets destructive!
kind regards,

Ben

I would guess that those folks who have fear as a result of the sound of gun fire would stay far, far away from such an event.

tiltbillings wrote:

Cittasanto wrote: No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)

Again, that is your opinion. I prefer my opinion. Because I own a gun and I use it occasionally to put holes in tin cans does not mean I am not established in walking a path of peace.

I doubt you know what my opinion is. and I will stick with the Buddhas option not my own preferences

Visakhuposatha Sutta wrote:"'For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned killing living beings, refrain from killing living beings, they have laid down their staffs, laid down their weapons, they are conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings;

Hi Tilt,

Yes, and I think the arising of fear is probably as a result of hearing a gun shot in an in-congruent context.
It would be normal to hear gun shots around a firing range. Likewise, in a rural location. Certainly where I work, some nights we have a local (licenced) shooter who comes on site controlling feral animals. When I hear him shooting, i have a different affective reaction if I am onsite alone than if he inadvertently happens to turn up to when the site is booked and inhabited by a large group of children.
kind regards,

Ben

Ben wrote:
Target shooting! Target shooting is a wholesome pursuit and Olympic sport!

Hi Ben
What do you think about the idea of owning a gun like a glock 19 for self defence purposes?

Cittasanto wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

Cittasanto wrote: No because we are walking a path of peace (supposedly)

Again, that is your opinion. I prefer my opinion. Because I own a gun and I use it occasionally to put holes in tin cans does not mean I am not established in walking a path of peace.

I doubt you know what my opinion is.

You have been repeatedly voicing it here.

and I will stick with the Buddhas option not my own preferences

Your opinion as to what that is.

Visakhuposatha Sutta wrote:"'For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned killing living beings, refrain from killing living beings, they have laid down their staffs, laid down their weapons, they are conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings;

That certainly would apply if I pointed my gun at living beings with the intent to kill them, but since I do not, it certainly does not apply, and no one here has made a definitive, unassailable argument that it does apply, though you have voiced your opinion on the matter of this text. The context is quite clear, having to to do with killing, which I do not do.

Visakhuposatha Sutta wrote:
"'For all their lives the arahants dwell having abandoned killing living beings, refrain from killing living beings, they have laid down their staffs, laid down their weapons, they are conscientious, sympathetic, compassionate for the good of all living beings

Ben wrote:Hi Tilt,

Certainly where I work, some nights we have a local (licenced) shooter who comes on site controlling feral animals.

I think you mean to say he is killing the animals. Please don't employ euphemisms that trivialize or attempt to conceal violence.

tiltbillings wrote:

Doshin wrote:

-So imagine a real life situation: ...

tiltbillings wrote:And if I don't have a gun, the enemy soldier kills me and everyone else in the tent. I'll go with Gandhi on this.

Soldiers are trained to instinctively kill every threat. So if he sees you reach for a gun, he would kill you before thinking (that's his training). If he sees doctors uniforms and you with your hands up, he is much less likely to kill you. I don't think you stand a chance against a professional soldier pointing a gun at you, if you are a doctor reaching for a gun.

Even if you get the chance to kill him, he probably just is one in a big group of enemy soldiers; and their next step would probably be to just throw some handgrenades into your tent.

These things such this imagenary stuff are absurd. ...

Never the less, you made your point on this imaginary setup.

tiltbillings wrote:... In the real world there have been 1-AO status individuals who have served for moral/religious reasons as unarmed medics who have in dire situations picked up a weapon to protect their wounded compatriots and themselves against an attacking enemy. The Vietcong was not big on taking prisoners during heavy firefights.

I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.

Doshin wrote:I'm not sure what you want to state by this. I only wanted to express my belief that reaching for a gun in the imaginary setup, I find it most likely to bring more killing/harming, then if one where to take a more mindfull approach.

Except, you do not know that. You can only hope that that would be so.