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Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:24 am
by Individual
Do you use caffeine or alcohol? What in your opinion is the consequence for the habitual use of these two substances? On alcohol, not necessarily alcoholism, but the kind of person who likes to get drunk occasionally, or even somewhat often, but in such a way that it does not interfere with their family life or employment.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:03 am
by pink_trike
Individual wrote:Do you use caffeine or alcohol? What in your opinion is the consequence for the habitual use of these two substances? On alcohol, not necessarily alcoholism, but the kind of person who likes to get drunk occasionally, or even somewhat often, but in such a way that it does not interfere with their family life or employment.
I gave them both up in 1980. I'm glad I did. I have a glass of wine about twice a year. Never caffeine. Looking in from the outside, I've observed for nearly 30 years a caffeinated/marinated society drive itself mad. Coffee is the "up" drug, alcohol is the "down" drug. Junk up on coffee to meet the unreasonable, stressful demands of daily life or to counter-effect the chronic fatigue that is epidemic in modern life - then junk down with alcohol to recover from the "up" high, while doing grievous damage to the internal organs over time.

Rule of thumb...if it's needed just to make it through the day (outside of food, water) then it's a crutch and likely an addiction. If "a good drunk" is needed, then likely something isn't being dealt with emotionally or mentally. If coffee is needed to meet physical or mental demands, adjustments in lifestyle/career may be needed.

My recommendation to society is to give them both up and let our corporate culture reorder itself around human beings moving and thinking and sleeping at a pace that fosters health and clarity - rather than be pawns in a factory economy that uses humans like talking tools and discards them like rotten meat if they're no longer productive or if they produce too slowly.

Regarding meditation practice, I'd suggest giving both up for a year and observe the effect on practice. At the end of that year, for one week go ahead and drink coffee and get drunk. Then observe the effects of that on the mind, body, practice, and life. It likely will be pretty revealing.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:46 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Individual,
Individual wrote:Do you use caffeine or alcohol?
Yes, and rarely, respectively.
Individual wrote:What in your opinion is the consequence for the habitual use of these two substances?
If you mean in a physical sense, I'd ask a medical expert.

If you mean in a mental sense, again, I'd ask a medical expert.

If you mean in a spiritual Buddhist sense, I would suggest the problem with use would be to the extent that mindfulness and heedfulness are hindered. In part, that's a product of the above two (physical and mental) but it's also in terms of habitual action (kamma) and the extent to which it is driven by craving. On this point, there's a lot to be said for faultless adherence to sila... whether it's 5 precepts or 227, the mindfulness involved in keeping your precepts, and the sublimation of craving and conceit that goes with not allowing yourself to wriggle out of them, is very beneficial to practice.
Individual wrote:On alcohol, not necessarily alcoholism, but the kind of person who likes to get drunk occasionally, or even somewhat often, but in such a way that it does not interfere with their family life or employment.
In a worldly sense, plenty of people do this without a problem.

In a spiritual sense, it sends your mindfulness completely off kilter... not just at that very moment, but it strengthens unwholesome latent tendencies, which then become harder to subdue after the event than they otherwise would have been.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:37 am
by Fede
Individual wrote:Do you use caffeine
Yes
or alcohol
Rarely. too rarely for words...
What in your opinion is the consequence for the habitual use of these two substances
Everything taken in excess is harmful.
Given that the 'habitual effects' vary from person to person, really, only the person can evaluate.
we have medical opinions and psychological diagnoses, but it's all clinical....
On alcohol, not necessarily alcoholism, but the kind of person who likes to get drunk occasionally, or even somewhat often, but in such a way that it does not interfere with their family life or employment.
Piffle.
Drunkedness interferes. Always. On subtle and more obvious levels, but trust me, the moment a person is drunk, there is an effect.
Both social and kammic.

I personally find it both odious and unnecessary for a person to get drunk.
It's a loss of control. And often results in idiocy.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:47 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
Fede wrote:Piffle.
Drunkedness interferes. Always.
In an worldly sense, sometimes "a social drink" is an integral component of one's family life and one's employment. Sometimes being a non-drinker actually "interferes" with family life and employment. What's that old saying....?.... "Never trust a man that doesn't drink". These views exist in the world.

It depends on your status quo from which you're measuring interference.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:11 am
by zavk
Hi Individual,
Do you use caffeine or alcohol?
There's caffeine in tea, does it count? I have a cup of tea every morning. I still enjoy coffee from time to time but can do without it. Oh yes, I drink energy drinks occasionally too, but can also do without it.

I don't know if I enjoy alcohol, to be honest. I like a bit of beer very occasionally but my body is really sensitive to the effects of alcohol. So sometimes I actually feel sick and lousy after having a drink, whilst other times I don't. For this reason, when I do drink I don't drink very much at all.
What in your opinion is the consequence for the habitual use of these two substances?
I like Pink's rule of thumb (see above). Habituation in any form is not a good thing.
On alcohol, not necessarily alcoholism, but the kind of person who likes to get drunk occasionally, or even somewhat often, but in such a way that it does not interfere with their family life or employment.
For the reasons explained above, I've never drank till the point where I get drunk. If I do drink more than I can manage (which really isn't that much), I just fall asleep. And I too find drunkenness very annoying. I stay away from people like that, even my own friends.

I agree with Retro, alcohol throws mindfulness totally out of whack. Have not felt the urge to drink for a while now. But I probably will when I go out tomorrow night for a friend's birthday.

Metta,
zavk

PS: I must say I really like the taste of well-brewed beer. I would drink non-alcoholic ones if they taste as good.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:38 am
by Ben
Hi Retro
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Fede wrote:Piffle.
Drunkedness interferes. Always.
In an worldly sense, sometimes "a social drink" is an integral component of one's family life and one's employment. Sometimes being a non-drinker actually "interferes" with family life and employment. What's that old saying....?.... "Never trust a man that doesn't drink". These views exist in the world.

It depends on your status quo from which you're measuring interference.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
In my mind, any social interaction that requires one to break one's sila isn't worth having.
Life is short anf fickle and death can come at any time.
Metta

Ben

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:43 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:In my mind, any social interaction that requires one to break one's sila isn't worth having.
Life is short anf fickle and death can come at any time.
Actually I agree with you.... I was just answering Individual's question.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:26 am
by Fede
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Fede wrote:Piffle.
Drunkedness interferes. Always.
In an worldly sense, sometimes "a social drink" is an integral component of one's family life and one's employment. Sometimes being a non-drinker actually "interferes" with family life and employment. What's that old saying....?.... "Never trust a man that doesn't drink". These views exist in the world.

It depends on your status quo from which you're measuring interference.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is there not a distinction between your "social drink" and Individual's "the kind of person who likes to get drunk"?

I personally make a distinction....

:namaste:

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:28 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Fede,
Fede wrote:Is there not a distinction between your "social drink" and Individual's "the kind of person who likes to get drunk"?
Not in the insurance industry.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:50 pm
by Fede
Now you're just being piccky.... :tongue: :stirthepot:

:namaste:

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:55 pm
by Mexicali
I drink coffee and tea every day, but haven't had soda or energy drinks in a while. I'm shamefully caffeine-addicted; if they ever ban caffeine, I'll end up homeless and emaciated just looking to cop in some back alley. ;) I also couldn't be a bhikku for that reason unless some kind soul could bring me coffee every day.

Alcohol, not so much.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:17 pm
by pink_trike
Ben wrote:Hi Retro
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Fede wrote:Piffle.
Drunkedness interferes. Always.
In an worldly sense, sometimes "a social drink" is an integral component of one's family life and one's employment. Sometimes being a non-drinker actually "interferes" with family life and employment. What's that old saying....?.... "Never trust a man that doesn't drink". These views exist in the world.

It depends on your status quo from which you're measuring interference.

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
In my mind, any social interaction that requires one to break one's sila isn't worth having.
Life is short anf fickle and death can come at any time.
Metta

Ben
Well said, but we can still participate in these events if we're confidently on our dot. Quentin Crisp once said something to the effect of "If you find yourself in circumstances that are inconsistent with your own values, give only your name, rank, and serial number and hold firm - eventually everyone will join you". Which I take to mean that when we stick to our convictions without being a nagging bore about them, we are modeling beneficial behavior that other people may eventually adopt. I find that sila is attractive to many people once they get over their habitual reactions to it (and then the questions begin to fly).

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:30 pm
by DNS
Alcohol: No
Caffeine: Yes, because it is in most teas:

Green tea: trace amounts
Jasmine tea: trace amounts
Black tea: medium amount
Coffee: large amount
Chocolate: trace amounts

I drink all teas, but mostly Jasmine, some coffee, and love chocolate.

I find that my mind is not effected with caffeine, unless I "accidentally" drink too much coffee in one day.

Re: Alcohol and Caffeine.

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:14 pm
by vitellius
I do not drink alcohol.

Usually I drink tea and more rarely coffee, - and I don't feel much effect of that. But in the middle of a recent one-month retreat I had a cup of instant coffee and had to meditate up to 2 AM after that (when bed time was at 9 PM), just because I couldn't get asleep. So, probably, there may be a reason to abstain from caffeine...