Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:18 pm

My Young Oncle Cittasanto,

please explain me how things are. Impermanemt, unpersonal, unsatisfactory, conditioned or is this an different case?

there are places on earth where layman had addopt may things from Buddhas wisdom and tradtion. For expample form of address. Where I am, its usal to put others higher or minimum reargding to their age (older or younger, you might remember Buddhas advices). So I would need call you puu (which is equal to young oncle), I you prefer to be called big brother it'S also ok.
Preaching people are normaly addressed as "lok ta" which is equal to "respectable Grandfather". "Lok" is an adress like lord or sir, while "ta" refers to grandfather or wise. To attach "my" is one more addition to express the bond. I thought that "my respectable Grandfather" would be maybe to heavy to bear for you. My young oncle is a very polite adressing at least as I guess your are not so old.

But since they also learn english here ther got more and more the idea of all are equal, ther is just you and me left. Respectful adressing is that is even disgusting felt in such sociaties, totaly contrary of what the Buddha had taught. Even in my language the english way has much influnces and old tradtional ways are lost. There is only one person left, "I".

So it is actually with many things in a Buddhist colored sociaty, of couse mostly things are just done traditional like the stanza we discussed above. Sometimes later we can also addopt it with heart, which is much more difficult if it was not learned in young years. If one one dayrelays totaly on the Sangha, don't use or hurt something outside the sangha anymore, that is perfect, that 100% refuge. Till this day it's a nice tradtion or a way to keep the own (my, our) community united which has sometimes less to do with the Sangha.

That is why such stanzas are recitated just traditional (normaly People even don't knowing the meaning), but when good usuals and understaning will come together one day, they are perfect. To be part of the (formal) Sangha one day is mosty the ambition, even it is only in old age.

Its just difficult if we take the stick always only just on one side, thinking we know. The other side will not come up. So here we usually train intelectually on the other side of the stick. Maybe we understand intellectually that we need to lift the stick in the middle.

So if I had done you harm with calling you my uncle, pleace tell me. Maybe we can even make a reconciliation.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:54 pm

Hanzze
Are you talking in an enviroment where the customs of address of one place in the world is appropriate?
You do not need to address me in any way other than by name, particularly a way outside the norm of this environment, it is inappropriate.

There is what is given, and what you insert.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Hanzze » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:12 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hanzze
Are you talking in an enviroment where the customs of address of one place in the world is appropriate?
You do not need to address me in any way other than by name, particularly a way outside the norm of this environment, it is inappropriate.

There is what is given, and what you insert.

Sorry my Oncle Cittasanto, I thought it is a Buddhist enviroment here. Respect is always something given but it has it's roots by ones old deeds as well.

You brought the sample of the stanza, which is exactly the same. I just used the adress sample to understand a little about addopting tradtions. I guess it's not the best for a good layman enviroment even it is tradtional done (addopted for Bhikkhus) but not proper.

Adressing respectable respectful in accordiance to their age and wisdom is Dhamma work (Apacayana) and should not be done out of faith.

Apacayana (Paying Respect)

Apacayana means paying respects to those who excel you in age, morality, integrity, wisdom, virtue, etc. Paying respects to elderly persons such as your father, mother, uncle, aunt; offering your seat and making way for those worthy of respect; bowing your head and showing humility, clasping your palms in homage to Bhikkhus, doffing your hat, saluting according to custom, etc. are all signs of respect. However, if you show respect unwillingly to a powerful person out of fear or with some selfish aim, this cannot be called apacayana, because it is pretentious in nature. It only amounts to maya (trickery).

Note:

Food for thought - bowing or curtseying is generally accepted as signs of reverence. In Myanmar some people put down whatever load they are carrying and prostate on the roads when they meet Bhikkhus. Some kneel down in the sidewalk or on the platform of a railway station to pay respects to monks and elderly persons. These actions if done with true sincerity, are not to be blamed. But in these days when people have to rush about in busy places, just a bow or a few humble words will suffice the need of apayacana. Kneeling down and prostrating in worshiping on meeting a Bhikkhu on the roads in a Bhikkhu on the roads or in busy crowded places in the presence of alien people are not really necessary.


And what I had told before, this practice of reciting this has less effects in regard of healthy confession, but is very well to train respect and also a meritious deed if it is in direction of the Sangha (not my sangha in this case)

How ever, it is maybe good if we drive more back to the topic. My little oncle Cittasanto, had shared a lot of good points before and little brother Hanzze would be really happy if my little oncle Cittasanto would explain more or share more own experiances in regard of the OP.

Thanks you my little oncle Cittasanto and please accept my apology if I had harmed you because I did not explain well. And please let little brother Hanzze know if we are her in an alien world, then it would be not from need.

But meanwhile I like to add a sutta Santa100 kindly had posted on another topic in regard of sotapanna (Streamenter) and precepts but it might be also good here in reagrd of confession:

"The bhikkhu knows, I haven’t undispelled hindrances on account of which my mind would not see it, as it really is.These things are thoroughly dispelled from my mind and it is ready for realising the truth. This is the first noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary...

...Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view. This is the fourth noble knowledge attained, not of the world and not shared by the ordinary."

MN 48


Not to much posts training: 5. Post/ 4.10. 11:09 am (accordiny messurement: 8 posts the last 24h) current value: 9. post
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Buddhist layman confession and re-taking of precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:31 am

Hanzze wrote:Sorry my Oncle Cittasanto, I thought it is a Buddhist enviroment here. Respect is always something given but it has it's roots by ones old deeds as well.

You brought the sample of the stanza, which is exactly the same. I just used the adress sample to understand a little about addopting tradtions. I guess it's not the best for a good layman enviroment even it is tradtional done (addopted for Bhikkhus) but not proper.

Adressing respectable respectful in accordiance to their age and wisdom is Dhamma work (Apacayana) and should not be done out of faith.

the environment may be buddhist, but it is not Thai, cambodian....
it is an english forum and the people you are speaking with although may use customs from a particular country when addressing someone from a tradition in that coulntry would not do it to people who are not, or adopt it into english for them. and that doesn't mean it carries the same meaning when translated into english.

certain things are impolite in certain context and polite in others.
Be one who knows the company they are in.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5688
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

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