Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Sekha wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:where does the Buddha say that a wasp life has more value than a human life?

come on.
1. First of all I have myself stepped over wasp nets twice in my childhood and teenage, I got stung by many insects at the same time. Apparently, I didn't die.

Not dying is good, but having had a toxic reaction to a hornet sting, my bloodpressure bottoming out until paramedics arrived, I can sayting not dying from stings is a good thing.

2. Even if they were that dangerous, the focus as always is on performing only wholesome deeds, whatever that entails.

But often one's actions also have an impact on others. Choices are always at hand to be made.

Keep in mind:

MN 21
"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Of course, but your life may not be the only one at stake here. Nothing easy about any of this.

I think this one depends on the circumstances. I don't know where Digity is based, but here in the UK wasps are a nuisance rather than lethal. One sting is painful, several in quick succession will spoil your day, but they would only be lethal for someone with an allergy or who fell right into the nest, etc. Then there is the issue of whether you can just work around the wasps by changing your routine. Is the nest somewhere you will always be passing and so can't help annoying them?

At Cittaviveka monastery, there was a nest in a stone wall in the cloisters one summer. There was a lot of through-traffic, but the monks put up a sign warning people. Those with allergies and children in tow used another route, and everyone else walked a lot more slowly and calmly past that spot. Everything worked out well for all concerned.

Having said that, I would not worry about destroying the wasps if their presence threatened a human life. If my children were severely allergic and wasps took up residence in my house, I would destroy all the wasps as soon as I could.

Strictly speaking, Sekha is correct. But you can go on practicing Buddhism if you kill the nest. Just means you obviously aren't enlightened yet, but I don't think you were under any illusions about that.

This thread is a little ludicrous. The stuff about the main problem being mental is technically correct, but I seriously doubt that anyone participating here would have the capacity to actually live that way in digity's situation.

Is there a way of destroying a wasps nest without intentionally killing any of the wasps? For example removing the nest and placing it somewhere else, or destroying the nest without intending to kill? Of course you would need strong protection - maybe a bee keeper suit or something, but at least you wouldn't be killing. Or can they be fumigated out?

I've don't know much about how insect exterminators work, but maybe they know non-lethal ways, or are at least willing to try them? - if you don't want to deal with the wasps yourself.

I think any method would only count as breaking the first precept if you intentionally killed the wasps.

There were a ton of wasps living on my back patio a few months ago. I would go out to smoke a cigarette and there would be about 30 or so of them just flying around or hanging out on the ground every time and I would just send them metta and they would buzz around my head but I never got stung by any of them. I don't think there should be any problem just letting them be unless you're allergic to them which it seems you aren't. In my case, eventually the wasps just weren't around anymore, they must have gone off somewhere else or died off somehow. But anyway, I would just treat them as you would any other bugs living outside and just leave them be. They're just wasps after all, not grizzly bears.

A couple of years ago that happened to me and I tried to remove the nest. I was stung many times and ended up at urgent care. Cost hundreds of dollars. I had a allergic reaction and er doc said that is common with multiple wasp stings.

I now use a deterrent every spring so that they do not build nests on my house anymore. I will see them flying around and then they fly away. I do the same to keep insects out of my house. Makes it unnecessary to hurt them. I have cats. Indoor cats as I do not want the birds hurt. But if bugs come inside the cats will get them before I am able to catch them for outdoor release. I caught one with a little lizard in its mouth last week. I was able to get it out and take it outdoors. It ran away. If something finds its way into my home, there is very little chance it will survive, so I try to keep them outside.

Deterrents I think are the best solution. I now have a couple of epi pens to use if I get stung because the doc said additional stings could be life threatening. He said a lot of people are allergic. So being stung is no small thing for a lot of people.

corrine

polarbuddha101 wrote: I would go out to smoke a cigarette

Self inflicted disease. I wonder how that fits into the 1st rule of training.

tiltbillings wrote:

polarbuddha101 wrote: I would go out to smoke a cigarette

Self inflicted disease. I wonder how that fits into the 1st rule of training.

Is the smoking itself the disease, or merely likely to lead to one? In any case, he's in good company:

in Thailand, everyone said that Ajahn Chah was an arahant - though he never said so. Then people would see him smoking a cigarette, and they'd think, "Arahants wouldn't smoke cigarettes, he couldn't be an arahant!"

Ajahn Sumedho http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajahn ... ly_Are.htm

Related to the OP I also remember a story that Ajahn Chah allowed the Thai Army to deal with a red ant problem at Wat Pah Pong at one time.

tiltbillings wrote:

polarbuddha101 wrote: I would go out to smoke a cigarette

Self inflicted disease. I wonder how that fits into the 1st rule of training.

Generally speaking I don't think smoking cigarettes breaks the first precept, but certainly it's a nasty habit that I need to quit. The tanha for smoking is just rather strong so renouncing the habit once and for all is pretty hard. But anyway, this is a red herring, my smoking has nothing to do with killing wasps or not.

If you really want to get rid of the wasps Digity, then I suggest spraying some deterrent like Corrine wound up doing that will get them to leave and prevent them from coming back.

Just get a hose with a strong spray attachment and blast out the nest. This isn't going to kill them, just destroy the nest. Wasps like to start to build nests under my siding most summers... I blast them out and they never come back. I've never found a dead wasp from the blasts of water either.

Just make sure you are close enough to the indoors to get inside quickly before they swarm.

marc108 wrote:Just get a hose with a strong spray attachment and blast out the nest. This isn't going to kill them, just destroy the nest. Wasps like to start to build nests under my siding most summers... I blast them out and they never come back. I've never found a dead wasp from the blasts of water either.

Just make sure you are close enough to the indoors to get inside quickly before they swarm.

I agree with this method. And even if a few die, there is no intention to kill, so no bad kamma.

I don't want to sound grumpy or holier-than-thou but two very basic points bother me about this whole thread:
(1) We have been through it all before - endlessly. This - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=16026 - is just one of many.
(2) If we are this concerned about a few wasps - which outnumber people by dozens or hundreds to one and are replaced by others every year - why aren't we showing more concern (or even as much concern) for children dying of starvation or poor hygiene right across the third world, innocent civilians dying in civil wars across Africa and the Middle East, whole eco-systems ruined by pollution, deforestation and (I don't want to start another thread on this topic but I've got to say it) climate change?


Kim

Kim O'Hara wrote:I don't want to sound grumpy or holier-than-thou but two very basic points bother me about this whole thread:
(1) We have been through it all before - endlessly. This - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=16026 - is just one of many.
(2) If we are this concerned about a few wasps - which outnumber people by dozens or hundreds to one and are replaced by others every year - why aren't we showing more concern (or even as much concern) for children dying of starvation or poor hygiene right across the third world, innocent civilians dying in civil wars across Africa and the Middle East, whole eco-systems ruined by pollution, deforestation and (I don't want to start another thread on this topic but I've got to say it) climate change?


Kim

I see your point, Kim, but I'm not sure the two issues are entirely comparable. The reason for this thread is that wasps present an problem for those trying to observe the first precept.

Having difficulties/concern over this problem doesn't preclude being concerned about the wider issues you raise. They are very important. But they are not related to precept observance per se.