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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:20 am
by SarathW
I just use the common sense!
A) Cut the apple in to three. First I offer it to the Arahant then chid and I have the rest.
B) If you insist that I should give the whole apple to one I will give it to Arahant. I know he will cut that into three and will be shared.
When I go to my local temple the monk always offer me food, tea and coffee.
C) I haven’t met an Arahant but I know that he/she will not be plump.

:group:

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:20 am
by Ceisiwr
Well, as I said, and I am quite sure, for almost anybody here, morality=sila. Issues revolving around generosity do not belong to the field of morality. The common logic behind these two is that of kamma. Are you sure you don't mistake morality for theories regarding kammic outcome of actions?

Yet we argue what sila means and how to apply it, so it helps to define our morality, ergo my first post to you which, btw, you still haven't defined (morality) :coffee:


Generosity does fall into the ethical debate :/


And I am not mistaking anything :) theories regarding kammic outcome fall into morality

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:22 am
by DNS
Ben wrote:I want to know more about the plump arahants!
Hotei:
Image

Here is an especially huge version:
Image

Damnit, the Mahayanists get all the fun!

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:22 am
by Ceisiwr
It's a discussion among civilized people, so let's not be rude.

Yes, let's not ;)

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:24 am
by Sekha
clw_uk wrote:I am not mistaking anything :) theories regarding kammic outcome fall into morality
well, if you say so..

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:25 am
by Ben
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ben wrote:I want to know more about the plump arahants!
Hotei:
Image

Here is an especially huge version:
Image

Damnit, the Mahayanists get all the fun!
Oh my lord!

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:26 am
by Ceisiwr
Sekha wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I am not mistaking anything :) theories regarding kammic outcome fall into morality
well, if you say so..

What other caregory does kamma fall into, physics?

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:49 am
by dagon
Ben wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ben wrote:I want to know more about the plump arahants!
Hotei:
Image

Here is an especially huge version:
Image

Damnit, the Mahayanists get all the fun!
Oh my lord!
Like others i went looking for plump arahants. google let me down and provided this instead, may be interesting.
One example for this potential of the Agamas can be found in relation to a passage in the Sabbåsava Sutta, concerned with proper use of the requisites of a monk or a nun. The Pali version of this discourse instructs that alms food should not be used for, among other things, ‘ornament’ and ‘adornment’.1

On considering this stipulation, one might wonder how food could be misused for ornament and adornment. The
Visuddhimagga explains these two expressions as referring to not taking food in order to become plump or to have a clear skin, as harem women or actors might do.
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... liDis1.pdf

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:14 pm
by manas
Jhana4 wrote: In Asia people take food away from their own children to feed monks. They also donate money to build statues while poor people live in horrible condtions.
That kind of thing is the more extreme manifestation, of an attitude which, I'm sad to say, is nevertheless also present amongst some Western Buddhists I've met over the years, yes even in my home town of Melbourne, Australia - the calculating aspect (ie giving according to where one will 'get' the most 'merit' - even when the recipient is obviously already quite well looked after, and copiously attended to (which is what I was trying to imply with the word 'plump'; I am well aware that most arahants would probably be on the skinny side).

I understand there is some humour about the 'plump arahant' term I used. Maybe I ought to have said, "already obviously well-fed and attended to, and not needing the apple as much as the starving child", but that would not have fitted into the title. Despite the humour, it is a real concern I have, however although I've dispensed with that attitude, I am trying to have compassion for those who still cling to it. But as I now see it - we ought to give first to the Bhikkhu / Bhikkhuni Sangha, if we know they are short of food and requisites, etc, rather than others - yes, let us support those who are dedicating their lives to the practice! But if it is obvious that the monks or nuns are already well looked after and attended to (and in a lot of Temples I've visited, it is pretty obvious), then maybe one could consider using one's resources to simply relieve the suffering of some other beings, just for that sake alone.

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:11 am
by Jhana4
manas wrote:
Jhana4 wrote: In Asia people take food away from their own children to feed monks. They also donate money to build statues while poor people live in horrible condtions.
That kind of thing is the more extreme manifestation, of an attitude which, I'm sad to say, is nevertheless also present amongst some Western Buddhists I've met over the years, yes even in my home town of Melbourne, Australia - the calculating aspect (ie giving according to where one will 'get' the most 'merit' - even when the recipient is obviously already quite well looked after, and copiously attended to (which is what I was trying to imply with the word 'plump'; I am well aware that most arahants would probably be on the skinny side).
Maybe not, there are a lot of fat meditation teachers and monks who seem to be very well developed internally. Some people have bodies that will get fat without care and my opinion is that people far along on a spiritual path may just not care what their body looks like as long as their basic health is good.

What you wrote about some Austrailians doing the same thing is interesting. Thanks. I think that is even more unforgivable since those people are likely conversts. Scoring merit like points wasn't something they were born into. They chose to suspend their healthy disbelief, IMO.

Someone in my Facebook sphere posted a humanist quote that I really liked. Something about a-religious people helping people, having ethics in the absence of the promise of a reward or a threat of a punishment. Wonderful! Ethics kept for the sake of getting rewareds or avoiding punishment isn't ethics at all.

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:49 am
by Mr Man
Jhana4 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:How about would you feed a starving child rather than giving something to yourself? In my opinion that makes the dilemma more real.
In Asia people take food away from their own children to feed monks. They also donate money to build statues while poor people live in horrible condtions.
Hi Jhana4
What do you mean by "In Asia people take food away from their own children to feed monks"? Do they actually take food away from their own children to feed monks? Is this a common practice? All over the world we use money on fancy cars, entertainment, drink, war, things we don't need, superstition etc. while poor people live in horrible conditions.

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:46 pm
by dagon
:goodpost: and thank you.

i was writing my own response but i think you have said it better, but i will post it anyway

The understanding that I have from the Dhamma is that we are responsible for our own intentions/actions. This would include our speech and there for what we say about ethics. While we are entitled to our own opinions in a discussion we are not entitled to our own facts.

Jhana4 wrote:
In Asia people take food away from their own children to feed monks.


I can only reply to that statement in accordance with my own experience, which is limited. Well there are billions of people in Asia so anyone could only ever get to know what the practice of a few are. Given the limitations of my experience what I have seen is a continuum of practices. Therefore I do not believe that it would be truthful or ethical for me to say “in asia” blah blah blah. I was hoping that perhaps following posts would limit this very general statement. I could be misunderstanding the words but then I see

What Jhana4 wrote
some Austrailians doing the same thing is interesting
The ‘Asians’ that I know best are my wife and sisters, all of them have told me the same thing. That the merit from giving a monk one grain of rice is that same as giving more. If they fill the bowl up with food that stops others from gaining merit and so there is bad karma in doing that.

Jhana4 wrote
They also donate money to build statues while poor people live in horrible condtions.
I would agree that some people “donate money to build statues“ IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD”. I think (reflecting on the 4 Noble Truths) that we all live in “horrible conditions”. I am not sure what definition of poor people is being used. There is economic poverty and there is spiritual poverty. In the poor parts of Asia I have been to there was usually spiritual riches where there was economic poverty.

My experience as a parent is that if there is not enough food the children get fed first – so if the food given to the monks was to come out of anyone’s food it would be the parents – maybe other people behave differently. Now I think about it I have seen in all parts of the world the situation where parents use money that should be used to feed the kids to feed drug habits. However I think it unlikely that those people are one that would feed monks or build statues.

metta
paul

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:48 pm
by mal4mac
"I weigh 30 pounds more than when I graduated from Oberlin."

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Bhi ... erview.htm

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:51 pm
by DNS
mal4mac wrote:"I weigh 30 pounds more than when I graduated from Oberlin."

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Articles/Bhi ... erview.htm
That was in response to the question:
You get one meal a day. Are you getting enough fiber? Are you getting enough protein?
So he was apparently assuring the interviewer that he gets enough to eat, not that he is fat. From his pictures he does not look too plump. He may have been skinny at Oberlin, so a 30 pound weight gain may have been needed.

Re: I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:45 pm
by Jhana4
Agreed. He is comparing his weight as a 50/60+ year old sedentary monk to a potentially skinny college student. It seems strange to me he went to Oberlin. The only people I met from Oberlin were other students in the 90s, and for lack of a better set of terms, they were all very doctrinaire Idealogues ( aka "PC" ). Given that early impression of the school, it is hard to imagine it producing someone like a TB