Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:

Tradition? Which one? The one that sacrifices animals to gods? The one that sacrifices human beings to gods? The one that stones people to death because they were raped? The one that puts men in arenas fighting with lions for the amusement of the crowd? The one that makes prepubescent boys to jump off a giant tower, severely injuring themselves, to prove their manhood? The one that burned "wiches"? I'm confused. Please clarify which of these traditions demonstrate the equilibrium in society that is the best possible.


I don't know ... You are writting about horrible things. This things were done by very concrete people. You seem to take fo granted that these people could at that time behave better, but maybe they could behave much worse and the sad truth is that at that time with that people it was ecactly the best possible what they could do.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
By the way, there have been terrible revolutionaries. There was Ghadni, who stopped hundreds of years of british collonialism through the sheer power of unflexible non-violence. There was Nelson Mandela who fought the wonderful tradition of Apertheid. And there was a man _ please guess who it was _ that was against the chaste system, who didn't use slaves, who created a monastic order for women, who dismissed the traditional brahmanism and who taught that true peace, freedom and happiness comes, not from aquisition, but through inner cultivation.


You are right, there have been terrible revolutionaries. There was Ghadni, who stopped hundreds of years of british collonialism, after what India has broken and suffer from wars and religious heatred. Not to mention just openly immoral comunist, Nelson Mandela, who ordered bomb atack on Church Street in Pretoria where died 19 people and more than 200 were wounded. You must be very unitelligent to insist that horrible things which now are happening in South Africa are better state of affairs then before tradition of Apertheid.

About Buddha you are mistaken - but maybe I am wrong. I am ready to change my mind - only please qoute just one Sutta where Lord Buddha speaks against the chaste system and tries to change social structure, otherwise than to give oprtunity for everyone to left home which in fact was a part of that time social structure.

But why not to abadon your doubts about tradition just simply by saddha and say to yourself, well :as long the Vajjis do not decree anything that has not been decreed or abolish anything that has already been decreed but undertake and follow the ancient Vajji principles as they have been decreed, only growth is to be expected for them, not decline. it was said by the Lord Buddha. I do not understand how these words could be true, but since they are the words of the Lord Buddha, they must be true, so I have to abandon my deluded ideas of rapid social progress and stick to tradition, where family has one mother - women, one father - man and children ...
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:20 pm

boris wrote:Friends, it is good, that you are so compassionate, unfortunately your idea on compassion is quite distorted. You are like “compassionate” people who are very upset because someone tries to prevent inexperienced, uneducated medically man to operate patient.

Are you sure? What do you look to for the dividing line of when compassion is or is not opportune?

Believe me, true compassion is to show someone what is kusala and what is akusala, because only that knowledge helps him to avoid suffering.

how do you know what is and is not kusala?

You seem to don't understand that society is build on greed, hate, and delusion, and as such, the sad truth is, that there is no healthy society … But through the process of living, things comes to some balance which we may call TRADITION. Tradition is not perfect state at all, but usually is the best possible to attain. And any kind of forceful, revolutionary “improvement” , end up with contrary results. It was perfectly well understood by the Lord Buddha, and hence his advice to stick to the tradition.

Who decided that? isn't it possible that tradition is also greed, hatred, and delusion have come to agreement instead of balance?

Unfortunately you also do not have sufficient saddha in The Buddha.

As to friend who suspect that I am under influence of Church, it is bad guessing. I started from more or less the same position as you have now and here. It is practicing of Dhamma changed my ideas.

For example, I considered actor work as more or less harmless, but now, standing on Dhamma I believe that actors for the most part end up in hell, so it is evidently akusala job.

Can you quote the Buddha saying homosexuality is bad (with reference)?

respectfully, the research supports the idea that children raised lovingly by same sex parents do just as well as those raised by straight parents. Take a look at this video, and see if this has any bearing on what you are concerned about:


About scientific research on that subject, I think data is still to limited to come to definite conclusions. Do not mention the sad truth that in world we are now living results of scientific research, depends not on ingenuity of scientist, but on who pays for it.

have you looked at the data to see if the theory is sound?
http://www.goldencradle.org/how-do-chil ... ption-fare
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/ive- ... adopted-me
http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/public ... ctices.pdf
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:36 am

boris wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:

Tradition? Which one? The one that sacrifices animals to gods? The one that sacrifices human beings to gods? The one that stones people to death because they were raped? The one that puts men in arenas fighting with lions for the amusement of the crowd? The one that makes prepubescent boys to jump off a giant tower, severely injuring themselves, to prove their manhood? The one that burned "wiches"? I'm confused. Please clarify which of these traditions demonstrate the equilibrium in society that is the best possible.


I don't know ... You are writting about horrible things. This things were done by very concrete people. You seem to take fo granted that these people could at that time behave better, but maybe they could behave much worse and the sad truth is that at that time with that people it was ecactly the best possible what they could do.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
By the way, there have been terrible revolutionaries. There was Ghadni, who stopped hundreds of years of british collonialism through the sheer power of unflexible non-violence. There was Nelson Mandela who fought the wonderful tradition of Apertheid. And there was a man _ please guess who it was _ that was against the chaste system, who didn't use slaves, who created a monastic order for women, who dismissed the traditional brahmanism and who taught that true peace, freedom and happiness comes, not from aquisition, but through inner cultivation.


You are right, there have been terrible revolutionaries. There was Ghadni, who stopped hundreds of years of british collonialism, after what India has broken and suffer from wars and religious heatred. Not to mention just openly immoral comunist, Nelson Mandela, who ordered bomb atack on Church Street in Pretoria where died 19 people and more than 200 were wounded. You must be very unitelligent to insist that horrible things which now are happening in South Africa are better state of affairs then before tradition of Apertheid.

About Buddha you are mistaken - but maybe I am wrong. I am ready to change my mind - only please qoute just one Sutta where Lord Buddha speaks against the chaste system and tries to change social structure, otherwise than to give oprtunity for everyone to left home which in fact was a part of that time social structure.

But why not to abadon your doubts about tradition just simply by saddha and say to yourself, well :as long the Vajjis do not decree anything that has not been decreed or abolish anything that has already been decreed but undertake and follow the ancient Vajji principles as they have been decreed, only growth is to be expected for them, not decline. it was said by the Lord Buddha. I do not understand how these words could be true, but since they are the words of the Lord Buddha, they must be true, so I have to abandon my deluded ideas of rapid social progress and stick to tradition, where family has one mother - women, one father - man and children ...


Your first paragraph contradicts your whole thinking. I assume you are at least intelligent enough to recognise that today we live better than those days where these traditions existed. However, if everybody thought like you, central american indians would still chop people's head off, europeans would have the inquisition, etc.; in particular, the Buddha wouldn't try to get away from a stagnated religious tradition.

Man, be honest: you are a biggot. Fine, there are biggots everywhere. What is quite degrading and disgusting is you trying to manipulate the Buddha's teachings into an interpretation supporting homophobia.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:11 am

Modus.Ponens wrote: Man, be honest: you are a biggot. .
Well, my social and political thinking belongs rather to tradition which you may call reaction. :smile: But I do not mind your description :smile:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
What is quite degrading and disgusting is you trying to manipulate the Buddha's teachings into an interpretation supporting homophobia.


You are owner of your action and are free to criticize me. I will tell you the truth, all my Dhamma discussions end up with more or less the same conclusions, done by my interlocutors: I am in the wrong. That makes me feel at ease and relaxed. :smile:

Modus.Ponens wrote:I assume you are at least intelligent enough to recognise that today we live better than those days where these traditions existed..


Unfortunately, your assumption is wrong. For me our times are barbarous, and it is very difficult to point out time in human history when inteligent thought and morality were so absent as now and here ...

Thank you, friends, for taking part in this interesting topic :smile: I think after coming to conclusion that we disagree there is no reason to continue, since gap between our views is too big, there is no hope for agreement ...
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby zamotcr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Certain kinds of sexual activity are classified as sexual misconduct because they harm others, and lead to rebirth in the lower realms. If reborn in the human realm, the evil effects of sexual misconduct are: having many enemies, getting an unsuitable spouse, rebirth as a women, or rebirth as a transsexual.


Hi Bhikkhu, I have read that everywhere, but where does that idea come from? Since when being a woman is bad kamma? :thinking:

This seems to be a cultural issue reflected in the suttas (if this idea is from there), but I don't know, but for me, neither male nor female is bad kamma.

Bad kamma would be being a woman in Middle East :jumping: but being a woman does not has anything bad or wrong.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:27 pm

zamotcr wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Certain kinds of sexual activity are classified as sexual misconduct because they harm others, and lead to rebirth in the lower realms. If reborn in the human realm, the evil effects of sexual misconduct are: having many enemies, getting an unsuitable spouse, rebirth as a women, or rebirth as a transsexual.


Hi Bhikkhu, I have read that everywhere, but where does that idea come from? Since when being a woman is bad kamma? :thinking:

This seems to be a cultural issue reflected in the suttas (if this idea is from there), but I don't know, but for me, neither male nor female is bad kamma.

Bad kamma would be being a woman in Middle East :jumping: but being a woman does not has anything bad or wrong.


You said it right: neither do we know if that comes from the suttas, nor being a woman is wrong. But you have to admit that it is disadvantageous: in average they are physicaly weaker; they are more likely to be raped; they have to be extracareful with their sexuality because they can actualy get preagnant;

None of these aspects is relevant to the value of each woman as an individual. They are not indicative, in any way, that being a woman is wrong (!). They are just disadvantages that women face in human society.

And just to be clear, being preagnant, in itself, is not a disadvantage. Having to be more careful with sexuality is. In fact, creating a being inside our body must be a deep experience.

PS: They have to pee sitting down :tongue:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby zamotcr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:You said it right: neither do we know if that comes from the suttas, nor being a woman is wrong. But you have to admit that it is disadvantageous: in average they are physicaly weaker; they are more likely to be raped; they have to be extracareful with their sexuality because they can actualy get preagnant;

None of these aspects is relevant to the value of each woman as an individual. They are not indicative, in any way, that being a woman is wrong (!). They are just disadvantages that women face in human society.

And just to be clear, being preagnant, in itself, is not a disadvantage. Having to be more careful with sexuality is. In fact, creating a being inside our body must be a deep experience.

PS: They have to pee sitting down :tongue:


Well, not all women are physicaly weaker. I know a lot of woman that are stronger than men, they are even champions in box. They are likely to be raped due to men, not her fault. If women were the dominant gender, men would be raped by her :tongue: Much of your examples are male chauvinistic views, either women and female should be extracareful, babies does not appear out of nothing, they need male and female :D

PS. Actually is better for the prostrate to pee sitting down :tongue:

And getting back to the topic, marriage equality is not an option, it is a right. I can't be denied to anyone. Lay precepts does not forbids same-sex unions, it does not forbid pleasure.
Either heterosexual or homosexual are based on sexual desire.

Boris, you may like it or not, but that's the way things are. Sorry for you.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:16 pm

boris wrote:About Buddha you are mistaken - but maybe I am wrong. I am ready to change my mind - only please qoute just one Sutta where Lord Buddha speaks against the chaste system and tries to change social structure, otherwise than to give oprtunity for everyone to left home which in fact was a part of that time social structure.


"Birth makes no Brahmin, nor non-Brahmin, makes; it is life‘s doing that mold the Brahmin true. Their lives mold farmers, tradesmen, merchants, and serfs. Their lives mold robbers, soldiers, chaplains, and kings. By birth is not one an out-caste. By birth is not one a Brahmin. By deeds is one an out-caste. By deeds is one a Brahmin."

(Majjhima Nikaya 98, Vasettha Sutta 57-59)
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby boris » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:29 pm

This is spiritual redefinition of true meaning of word Brahaman, and Dhamma teaching on action. It is not statement: social hierarchy is unjust and bramins, khatiyas and so on should be on the same level. Coming back to tradition do notice that when Buddha criticised contemporary bramins for their beheviour, he usually compared them with ancient tradition.

You play chess, I think. In terms of chess, Buddha teaching is how to never lose. And there is only one way never lose in chess. Just to stop play :smile:
So Buddha teaching on the first place is about how to liberate mind from time and space. Dhamma is not concern too much with order in time and space, since however good living conditions could be attain, it will be very unstable and impermanent state, do not mention fact, that where there are states of greed, hate and delusion possibility to create healty society are limited, while danger of barbarity is always hanging in the air.

By the way, what is your elo? :smile:
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:36 pm

zamotcr wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:You said it right: neither do we know if that comes from the suttas, nor being a woman is wrong. But you have to admit that it is disadvantageous: in average they are physicaly weaker; they are more likely to be raped; they have to be extracareful with their sexuality because they can actualy get preagnant;

None of these aspects is relevant to the value of each woman as an individual. They are not indicative, in any way, that being a woman is wrong (!). They are just disadvantages that women face in human society.

And just to be clear, being preagnant, in itself, is not a disadvantage. Having to be more careful with sexuality is. In fact, creating a being inside our body must be a deep experience.

PS: They have to pee sitting down :tongue:


Well, not all women are physicaly weaker. I know a lot of woman that are stronger than men, they are even champions in box. They are likely to be raped due to men, not her fault. If women were the dominant gender, men would be raped by her :tongue: Much of your examples are male chauvinistic views, either women and female should be extracareful, babies does not appear out of nothing, they need male and female :D

PS. Actually is better for the prostrate to pee sitting down :tongue:

And getting back to the topic, marriage equality is not an option, it is a right. I can't be denied to anyone. Lay precepts does not forbids same-sex unions, it does not forbid pleasure.
Either heterosexual or homosexual are based on sexual desire.

Boris, you may like it or not, but that's the way things are. Sorry for you.


I should have anticipated that I would be misunderstood. I was not being chauvinist. I was stating disadvantages, or hardships, women go through, that men don't. You are obviously right about there being women who are stronger than most men. I would get my as* kicked by them. That's why I said in average. Yes, you are right: it's because of male agression, it's the male's fault that a woman gets raped. The point is that the hardship is beared by the woman. Yes, I believe a man is as responsible for a baby as a woman. However, in the event of a one night stand, where there is no further contact, the woman has to face the decision of doing an abortion alone, or raise the kid by herself. That's something I wouldn't want to go through. More to the point, in the Buddha's time, there was probably no notion of this equality of duty of father and mother towards a child, so it was the woman who had to go through this (yes, the men should have been responsible).

Nowhere I was being chauvinist.

I have my doubts that that was an authentic teaching. Nor do I believe that being a woman is wrong (!). In the event that it is an authentic teaching from the Buddha, I was trying to find a rational basis for it. That's all. I believe in the Buddha's freedom from attachment, aversion and ignorance so, to me, he couldn't possibly be a misogynist.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:45 am

boris wrote:By the way, what is your elo? :smile:


I am not active anymore. When I was it was in the CM to FM almost IM range.

boris wrote:You play chess, I think. In terms of chess, Buddha teaching is how to never lose. And there is only one way never lose in chess. Just to stop play :smile:


Yes, it is best to stop "playing" but for lay people, they are still in the "game" and are not required to be celibate.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:15 am

greenjuice wrote:This is exactly the lax view of sexuality among Theravadins that I dont like, and I don't think there is really a reason to hold it. I personally find homosexuality immoral, just like e.g. autosexuality, too.
Thank goodness following the Dhamma does not mean following your personal notions about sex.
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Re: Ajahn Sujato and Marriage Equality

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:53 am

This thread is about Ajahn Sugato and Marriage Equality. Please keep to this topic.

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