Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
wolf1
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Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby wolf1 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:10 pm

Dear Forum Members,

i am new on the forum. i practice theravada since one and a half year. i try to leave porn videos because porn is a bad and primitive thing. but it is so hard and painful because i became a prisoner of porn. i tried asubha in the past but i leaved it, now i started again. i use more powerful type of asubha.
i use an asubha nimitta. it is an image about a dead people. when i have a sexual thought then i close my eyes and imagine the photo what i memorised.
in the past i did asubha by an other way. i watched autopsy photos and videos but it sometimes made me nervous and i couldn't sleep sometimes. and it was a more weak way.
i did the more weak way until almost one year. but after a half year my suffering was just bigger and bigger. and i leaved asubha and i was back to watching porn. about sex i am not interested very much. but porn yes.
now i do asubha nimitta. it works very powerful. but i feel so depressed emotions often. it makes me sad. cleaning is very painful. now more painful. maybe you know too that try to kill our deep desires makes ourself sad and fustrated.
sometimes i very miss porn. and then i do asubha nimitta and i don't want to watch. after it the pain comes. my desires and the Dhamma fight in me.
so bad. maybe i will be tired of a lot of sadness and pain and i will watch porn again and leave asubha again. i always find any problem what makes me want to leave asubha. i try to keep myself busy and do a hobby and i meditate almost every days. i try the best to leave porn but i always find a problem.

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:34 pm

:hug:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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http://freerice.com

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby Coyote » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:45 pm

I was going to write something, but can't put it into the right words.

Hope this helps: http://yourbrainonporn.com/node/79

Wishing you well
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby santa100 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:26 pm

Refer to MN 20 for the 5 strategies to counter unwholesome thoughts. Here's the important thing, don't just use the foulness of body contemplation as the one and only strategy. Make sure to combine with the Four Brahmaviharas, mindfulness of breathing, and the Triple Gem Recollection. Good luck..

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby manas » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:32 pm

wolf1 wrote:Dear Forum Members,

...now i do asubha nimitta. it works very powerful. but i feel so depressed emotions often. it makes me sad. cleaning is very painful. now more painful. maybe you know too that try to kill our deep desires makes ourself sad and fustrated...


"trying to kill your deep desires..."; this sounds like a recipe not only for stress, but for neurosis as well.

__________________________________________________________________

Hi wolf

you are not doing anything illegal, you know. As an adult, you are allowed to look at porn. And if you are a single man with no partner at present, and you use porn because, like 99% of the human population you have natural sexual desire and feel the need to fulfill it, well you are not alone...lots and lots of single guys use porn to get through a period of having no sexual partner.

Since you are a sexual being like all of us, and asubha seems to be doing more harm than good in your case, I suggest facing reality and accepting that you are not ready for celibacy right now, and that a better option would be to get out more, meet new people, and see if you can make a real-life connection with someone, in other words - a mutually respectful, loving relationship with another person would be more wholesome, and less stressful, than what you are doing right now to 'manage' your sex desire. Sex, romance etc is not forbidden for lay Buddhists, you know.

Peace,

manas.
:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby Coyote » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:39 pm

manas wrote:
you are not doing anything illegal, you know. As an adult, you are allowed to look at porn. And if you are a single man with no partner at present, and you use porn because, like 99% of the human population you have natural sexual desire and feel the need to fulfill it, well you are not alone...lots and lots of single guys use porn to get through a period of having no sexual partner.

Since you are a sexual being like all of us, and asubha seems to be doing more harm than good in your case, I suggest facing reality and accepting that you are not ready for celibacy right now, and that a better option would be to get out more, meet new people, and see if you can make a real-life connection with someone, in other words - a mutually respectful, loving relationship with another person would be more wholesome, and less stressful, than what you are doing right now to 'manage' your sex desire.


^What I was trying to say. Not that celibacy is not a commendable thing, nor that porn addiction is not a serious problem.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby rowboat » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:29 pm

Journalist Chris Hedges on pornography:

phpBB [video]
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby wolf1 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:26 am

santa100 wrote:Refer to MN 20 for the 5 strategies to counter unwholesome thoughts. Here's the important thing, don't just use the foulness of body contemplation as the one and only strategy. Make sure to combine with the Four Brahmaviharas, mindfulness of breathing, and the Triple Gem Recollection. Good luck..


Thank you very much. I will try.

manas wrote:
wolf1 wrote:Dear Forum Members,

...now i do asubha nimitta. it works very powerful. but i feel so depressed emotions often. it makes me sad. cleaning is very painful. now more painful. maybe you know too that try to kill our deep desires makes ourself sad and fustrated...


"trying to kill your deep desires..."; this sounds like a recipe not only for stress, but for neurosis as well.

__________________________________________________________________

Hi wolf

you are not doing anything illegal, you know. As an adult, you are allowed to look at porn. And if you are a single man with no partner at present, and you use porn because, like 99% of the human population you have natural sexual desire and feel the need to fulfill it, well you are not alone...lots and lots of single guys use porn to get through a period of having no sexual partner.

Since you are a sexual being like all of us, and asubha seems to be doing more harm than good in your case, I suggest facing reality and accepting that you are not ready for celibacy right now, and that a better option would be to get out more, meet new people, and see if you can make a real-life connection with someone, in other words - a mutually respectful, loving relationship with another person would be more wholesome, and less stressful, than what you are doing right now to 'manage' your sex desire. Sex, romance etc is not forbidden for lay Buddhists, you know.

Peace,

manas.
:anjali:


As i wrote i am not interested in sex very much, and don't miss sex very much, i am more interested in porn and miss porn. it happens because i did a lot of asubha meditation and in my mind porn desires are more strong than simple sex desires.
you wrote that it is not a big problem. for a serious buddhist practicer it is a problem - just think porn is primitive and not so good because you just watch how other peoples do sex. it is their private thing. and porn makes a strong addict. it is not the middle way. Buddha taught the middle way, but it is not a middle way that a people watch porn every third day.
and porn is a very strong desire - it makes the meditation success of the meditation practice more hard and slow.

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby happylotus1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:26 am

How can we avoid addictions like porn addiction?

There are so many different types of addictions. When you practise Vipassana, you will understand that your addiction is not actually to that particular substance or situation. It seems as if you are addicted to pornography. But actually, you are addicted to a particular sensation in the body, a bio-chemical flow caused by that particular visual stimuli. Your addiction is to the sensations. Through Vipassana you come out of that addiction, all addictions. It is so natural, so scientific. Just try, and you will experience how it works.


Escape is no solution; you have to face the problem. Whenever negativity arises in the mind, just observe it, face it. As soon as you start to observe a mental impurity, it begins to lose its strength and slowly withers away.
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:03 am

My guess is this problem is bigger and harder than I can help you with!!!! Good luck.......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby wolf1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:51 am

lyndon taylor wrote:My guess is this problem is bigger and harder than I can help you with!!!! Good luck.......


Why do you say it? every problems has solutions. and i am not a man. the truth i am female. but since i am bisexual i watched lesbian porn. please, if you have an idea then tell me.

happylotus1 wrote:
How can we avoid addictions like porn addiction?

There are so many different types of addictions. When you practise Vipassana, you will understand that your addiction is not actually to that particular substance or situation. It seems as if you are addicted to pornography. But actually, you are addicted to a particular sensation in the body, a bio-chemical flow caused by that particular visual stimuli. Your addiction is to the sensations. Through Vipassana you come out of that addiction, all addictions. It is so natural, so scientific. Just try, and you will experience how it works.


Escape is no solution; you have to face the problem. Whenever negativity arises in the mind, just observe it, face it. As soon as you start to observe a mental impurity, it begins to lose its strength and slowly withers away.


i also do it. but i think asubha is not escape, because a many peoples use it for make the sexual desires more weak. asubha is just shows that body's beauty is an illusion, a wrong thought. and also shows body will be die. it is see the truth but not escape-.

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:03 am

wolf1 wrote:As i wrote i am not interested in sex very much, and don't miss sex very much, i am more interested in porn and miss porn. it happens because i did a lot of asubha meditation and in my mind porn desires are more strong than simple sex desires.
you wrote that it is not a big problem. for a serious buddhist practicer it is a problem - just think porn is primitive and not so good because you just watch how other peoples do sex. it is their private thing. and porn makes a strong addict. it is not the middle way. Buddha taught the middle way, but it is not a middle way that a people watch porn every third day.
and porn is a very strong desire - it makes the meditation success of the meditation practice more hard and slow.


The first thing you need to work on is this guilt-trip you're on.
You view yourself as bad and unwholesome, as having done something wrong, and you are punishing yourself.

Then you have to work on this 'grasping/clinging issue.

It's not your perceived addiction to porn that is the problem; it's your attachment to believing it's wrong, that's the problem.

Look: Porn exists. It appeals to thousands and thousands and thousands of different people, every day. it's an industry and will continue to be an industry for as long as there are people.

Unless you are a dedicated seeker of ordination, then a liking for porn, and watching it, is not something you need to beat yourself up about.

Rather than trying to kill the desire, or suppress your natural urges, when you meditate, focus on why you have developed such a self-incriminating, self-condemning attitude.
Because in order to be at peace with yourself, you have to accept that you - just like everyone else - trips up.

it's OK to do what you're doing.
it's NOT Ok to develop guilt to such an extent that it begins to sound like self-loathing.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby wolf1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:32 am

My strategy is: i think it: full of desires and full of delusions thoughts appears ---> these thoughts are dirty, and full of greed, it would makes suffering ---> asubha nimitta ---> i thinking about Buddha ---> i thik it: full of desires and full of delusions thoughts are not.
Sorry for my english....

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby Zom » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:34 am

You are on the right track. You have correct understanding that sexual craving is unwholesome thing (right views factor) and correct desire to remove this unwholesome thing (right aspiration factor). These two will nurture other path factors and in time you will succeed in overcoming sensual desire. Just keep going, and remember, it won't happen quickly. Propably some years of constant practice needed. But then you will see results for yourself.

I'll also give you one tip. Every time when this craving obsess your mind, keep watching the mental pain it creates - as long as you can. This contemplation is very important, because when your mind sees this pain, it will come to deeper understanding that strong craving it a nasty and painful thing. You just need to watch it, this pain, directly, every time craving arises. When your mind comes to this understanding, it won't produce such strong craving anymore.
Last edited by Zom on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:41 am

wolf1 wrote:My strategy is: i think it: full of desires and full of delusions thoughts appears ---> these thoughts are dirty, and full of greed, it would makes suffering --->


And there's your problem, right there.
Unskillful labelling.

You hang your issue on condemnation, and demonise what you do.

Take away those labels, you're almost emotionally criminalising your actions.

Stop with the ''dirty' and 'greedy'.

What you do - is what you do.
You may want to stop doing what you're doing, so frequently, or altogether - but condemning yourself by using such strong terminology is not conducive to your task, and has not worked, has it?

You need to alter your perception, and look at matters from a new perspective.
You may believe your actions are unwholesome, and not conducive to one who wishes to follow a Buddhist calling.
Fine.
But stop piling so much guilt and self-loathing onto your shoulders.

Change what you're doing, because what you're doing isn't helping - it's just making things worse.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:59 am

wolf1 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:My guess is this problem is bigger and harder than I can help you with!!!! Good luck.......


Why do you say it? every problems has solutions. and i am not a man. the truth i am female. but since i am bisexual i watched lesbian porn. please, if you have an idea then tell me.



Sorry I was trying to be funny on the mistaken assumption you were a man!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby happylotus1 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:15 am

Asuva is an excellent practice referred by the Buddha to pacify our lustful mind so as to create a suitable condition for a higher meditation practice. Escape in my previous posting did not refer to asuva bhavana but to the "attitude" of running away. Self hate, grudge towards our habit does not reduce our negativity rather they help to pile up more defilement. Accepting or facing reality and working in a balanced way would help to reduce our defilement. The purpose of mindfulness meditation like vipassana is to let us develop awareness based on our feelings so that our mind knows very well the aftereffects of any harmful activity such as watching porn and associated self blame and regret. I think you are on a right track as your mind is aware of this aftereffects and you want to come out of the negativity. In my view, three steps are crucial to fight with any of the addictions or defilement in general:
1. Sense restraint: Be determined and make effort as much as possible not to watch porn. If you have watched , be aware and move out of it and watch feelings/sensations of that particular situation
2. Develop concentration: Increase one pointedness on subject of meditation(of course it is a gradual process) Watching asuva will be helpful for developing concentration as per the original pali text.
3. Develop equanimity: Observe body sensations with equanimity to develop balanced mind. and more importantly our attitude should be like this
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
Last edited by happylotus1 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:40 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
wolf1 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:My guess is this problem is bigger and harder than I can help you with!!!! Good luck.......


Why do you say it? every problems has solutions. and i am not a man. the truth i am female. but since i am bisexual i watched lesbian porn. please, if you have an idea then tell me.



Sorry I was trying to be funny on the mistaken assumption you were a man!

You know what they say ....when we assume.... :tongue:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:04 pm

Well the OP DID mention how hard the problem was!!! And you were the one asking for more humour on the forum, NoBS.....
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Porn addict and painful and hard cleaning

Postby wolf1 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:32 am

Zom wrote:You are on the right track. You have correct understanding that sexual craving is unwholesome thing (right views factor) and correct desire to remove this unwholesome thing (right aspiration factor). These two will nurture other path factors and in time you will succeed in overcoming sensual desire. Just keep going, and remember, it won't happen quickly. Propably some years of constant practice needed. But then you will see results for yourself.

I'll also give you one tip. Every time when this craving obsess your mind, keep watching the mental pain it creates - as long as you can. This contemplation is very important, because when your mind sees this pain, it will come to deeper understanding that strong craving it a nasty and painful thing. You just need to watch it, this pain, directly, every time craving arises. When your mind comes to this understanding, it won't produce such strong craving anymore.



happylotus1 wrote:Asuva is an excellent practice referred by the Buddha to pacify our lustful mind so as to create a suitable condition for a higher meditation practice. Escape in my previous posting did not refer to asuva bhavana but to the "attitude" of running away. Self hate, grudge towards our habit does not reduce our negativity rather they help to pile up more defilement. Accepting or facing reality and working in a balanced way would help to reduce our defilement. The purpose of mindfulness meditation like vipassana is to let us develop awareness based on our feelings so that our mind knows very well the aftereffects of any harmful activity such as watching porn and associated self blame and regret. I think you are on a right track as your mind is aware of this aftereffects and you want to come out of the negativity. In my view, three steps are crucial to fight with any of the addictions or defilement in general:
1. Sense restraint: Be determined and make effort as much as possible not to watch porn. If you have watched , be aware and move out of it and watch feelings/sensations of that particular situation
2. Develop concentration: Increase one pointedness on subject of meditation(of course it is a gradual process) Watching asuva will be helpful for developing concentration as per the original pali text.
3. Develop equanimity: Observe body sensations with equanimity to develop balanced mind. and more importantly our attitude should be like this
"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.


these are good thank you :)

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
wolf1 wrote:My strategy is: i think it: full of desires and full of delusions thoughts appears ---> these thoughts are dirty, and full of greed, it would makes suffering --->


And there's your problem, right there.
Unskillful labelling.

You hang your issue on condemnation, and demonise what you do.

Take away those labels, you're almost emotionally criminalising your actions.

Stop with the ''dirty' and 'greedy'.

What you do - is what you do.
You may want to stop doing what you're doing, so frequently, or altogether - but condemning yourself by using such strong terminology is not conducive to your task, and has not worked, has it?

You need to alter your perception, and look at matters from a new perspective.
You may believe your actions are unwholesome, and not conducive to one who wishes to follow a Buddhist calling.
Fine.
But stop piling so much guilt and self-loathing onto your shoulders.

Change what you're doing, because what you're doing isn't helping - it's just making things worse.


it is not about hate myself or a similar thing. u read this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Vitakkasanthana Sutta: The Relaxation of Thoughts

"if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a young woman — or man — fond of adornment, would be horrified, humiliated, and disgusted if the carcass of a snake or a dog or a human being were hung from her neck; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it."


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