Does the card game "cheat" break the fourth precept?

[palchi]

Most card games require concealment and subterfuge. Is this lying by omission....?

Well, I'm more in the don't overthink camp… there are plenty of great board or card games around that are not built around the concept of cheating and more and more board games also requiring collaboration rather than competition.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Oh I agree. If you read the thread (I'm sure you have seen comments hitherto) I am of the same opinion.
I'm merely pointing out to the OP that such games all require some kind of strategy which puts 'you' at an advantage, and everyone else at a disadvantage.

We can take this to the Nth degree.

I just wanted to see how far - as a layperson not bound by the strictures and rigidity of ordination - the OP wants to go with this....

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Incidentally, did you know that 'Snakes and Ladders' originated as a Hindu game to teach children the consequences of right and Wrong ...."Everything"...?

It was a game the origins of which lie in Sound Morality and Virtue.

[Sam Vara]

Incidentally, did you know that 'Snakes and Ladders' originated as a Hindu game to teach children the consequences of right and Wrong ...."Everything"...?

It was a game the origins of which lie in Sound Morality and Virtue.

"But Daddy, all I did was throw this dice and the snake got me, but Arjun did the same and got a ladder! I think I prefer the teachings of the Buddha to all this aleatory nonsense..."

[ihrjordan]

You are SOOO over-thinking this.

It's - a - game! That's ALL!
You're all doing the same thing, for fun, as a pastime, just for entertainment, camaraderie, bonding, enjoyment....it's not something that will put your head on a block and sentence you to death, or worse!

It's just some temporary fun!

If it bothers you that much - don't play it!!
Simple, and sorted!

If you don't want to lie, don't play!

How difficult do you want to make this for yourself?

And more pertinently - why?

You're missing the point. The precepts aren't in place to attain some sort of spiritual one upmanship the point of the precepts is to cultivate peace of mind for oneself. We avoid lying of any kind not because of the effect it has on other people but because of the effect it has on OUR mind. it plants the seed of greed and delusion in our mind in one way way or another no matter how insignificant the lie.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

No, I didn't miss the point, i don't think. From my own personal standpoint, I believe the OP was being too rigid in his caution.
But of course, that would be his stand. And my comments were only opinion, which of course he and anyone/everyone is welcome to ignore, or challenge....

But I did get it.
I understand the dilemma.

I just think that as a layperson, he should not punish himself so severely.
If indeed, that's what he's doing, which is what it seems like to me.

[ihrjordan]

I too don't think he should be able to play such a game as a layperson, he should just always have it in the back of his mind that this can be and is counter intuitive to the meditation. Meditation is to stay focused on the present moment and really entertainment aims to make the mind restless and build a sort of dependence on said entertainment, to varying degrees.

[ihrjordan]

I too don't think he should be able to play such a game as a layperson, he should just always have it in the back of his mind that this can be and is counter intuitive to the meditation. Meditation is to stay focused on the present moment and really entertainment aims to make the mind restless and build a sort of dependence on said entertainment, to varying degrees.

[Mkoll]

A fool with a sense of his foolishness is — at least to that extent — wise. But a fool who thinks himself wise really deserves to be called a fool.

-Thanissaro

~~~

A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.

-Buddharakkhita

One of my favorite Dhp quotes.