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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Lust

Lust

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Lust

Postby Jetavan » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:29 pm

ihrjordan wrote:Hello everyone I've noticed that since i've advanced in meditation over the past year and half (buddhism in general)and my mind becoming somewhat clearer using the mahasi sayadaw method of mental noting, I'm seeing lust arise like crazy.

Does the lust diminish if you stop meditating?
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Re: Lust

Postby ihrjordan » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:31 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Of course it's controllable.
if it were UNcontrollable, the women around you would be unsafe in your presence.
you contain and restrain yourself.

Dissipate the lust by whatever physical means you find appropriate.
But to say it is uncontrollable is clearly untrue.

Which is the meaning of "Impermanent suffering and non-self" btw I guess I'm just looking for a more formal answer to my question like a sutta to recite in my head when the feeling arises or something like that.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: Lust

Postby ihrjordan » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:33 pm

Jetavan wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:Hello everyone I've noticed that since i've advanced in meditation over the past year and half (buddhism in general)and my mind becoming somewhat clearer using the mahasi sayadaw method of mental noting, I'm seeing lust arise like crazy.

Does the lust diminish if you stop meditating?

Hard to say. Tbh It never used to come up like this I feel like I may just be noticing what was always there a little more when I'm using sahti.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: Lust

Postby Coyote » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:36 pm

ihrjordan,

I don't know the specifics of the mahasi technique very well, but I would imagine they would advise you to keep on noting, cultivating equanimity and the perception of impermanence, notself, dukkha. What I will say is that celibacy is not mandatory as a layperson and sexual desire is not eliminated until the anagami fruit. If you want to go down that route, then my understanding is that you need to see the drawbacks first. Looks like you have a good start there, but make sure it is not aversion.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Lust

Postby walkart » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:53 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Indeed. So there is no point in compounding the suffering further by restraining himself unnecessarily.

He is not obligated to observe celibacy. So why force himself to endure it without any need?


It's can be true, but it's not the case here, because ihrjordan ask us how to stop suffering of lust, not how to stop suffering of precepts.
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Re: Lust

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:55 pm

ihrjordan wrote:Which is the meaning of "Impermanent suffering and non-self" btw I guess I'm just looking for a more formal answer to my question like a sutta to recite in my head when the feeling arises or something like that.


perhaps reading this, will help....?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Lust

Postby mindstring » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:19 pm

A technique for counteracting lustful (or greedy) feelings that has worked well for me is to look more closely at the features/qualities of whoever (or whatever) I find myself attracted to. I find that lustful thoughts are often as much, or more, about craving for a perception (saññā) or mental formation (saṅkhāra) of beauty that my mind is fabricating as for the actual sense object. When I just quickly see an attractive person, it's like my mind fills in the details with what it wants to see, and it's easy to feel lust. However, the closer I look, the more obvious that person's realities become (e.g., unequal proportions, rolls of fat, wrinkled skin, a few grey hairs, worn clothes, smudged make-up, etc.), and the harder it is to feel lust. Don't stare impolitely, of course, but look past the make-up, hair styles, shapes of clothing, etc.

Anyone's body can be reduced to neither-attractive-nor-unattractive components (skin, hair, muscle, fat, bone, glands, organs, etc.). Reading about the science of anatomy is also a good way to learn how to mentally reduce bodies to components. For example, eye color is just melanin + light refraction; breasts are glandular, fat, and connective tissues, and both/all sexes have the same tissues to some degree; sex organs diverge in the womb from a common template; etc. I once wrote a more detailed blog post about this, here: http://mindstring.net/2014/03/30/reflections-on-repulsiveness/. Bodies are just biological hardware (rupa) -- a substrate for the arising of sensations, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness (i.e., the five khandhas).

I find that a good way to see differences between internal and external things is to compare how people or things look in dreams vs. how they look when awake. I've seen/fabricated images of people in dreams that are much more beautiful than any person I've ever seen when awake. Practicing lucid dreaming (e.g., trying to stop and examine things in dreams, to control what happens in dreams, or to create and destroy inanimate objects in dreams), keeping a dream journal, attaching labels to dreams for easier remembering, etc. can help one see dreams more clearly.

I agree that reflecting too much on repulsiveness can take one down a dark mental path. Focusing on tiny details can lead to insights, but can also be overwhelming and exhausting. These things are all just mental techniques, treatments, or medicines. Like any medicine, one should take only enough to get well, and taking too much can be harmful.

Hope this helps :anjali:
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Re: Lust

Postby culaavuso » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:34 pm

ihrjordan wrote:I'm just looking for a more formal answer to my question like a sutta to recite in my head when the feeling arises or something like that.


One possibility is to review the parts of the body:

AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta wrote:There is in this body: hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, muscle, tendons, bones, bone marrow, spleen, heart, liver, membranes, kidneys, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, gall, phlegm, lymph, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil in the joints, urine.


There is discussion on the contemplation of the parts of the body at 32 Parts of the Body Meditation by Ven. Dhamma Viro. There is also discussion in the Path of Purification.

Another possible quote to recite would be the fourth Dhamma summary of Ratthapala:

MN 82: Ratthapala Sutta wrote:The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.


It's useful to put in perspective that reciting something mentally to deal with the hindrance is just the first of the five strategies suggested in MN 20 which was linked in santa100's post earlier in this thread. It may be helpful to keep the other four strategies in mind for situations where the first strategy alone is insufficient.
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Re: Lust

Postby Mkoll » Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:51 pm

Good postings, mindstring and culaavuso.

A strategy that works for me is the "bones" part of the 31 parts of the body. We've all got a skeleton and I'm sure we've all seen models or real skeletons before in real life or on screen so they should be easy to see in your own or another's body. Bones are also less repulsive than feces or something, so they're repulsive enough to reduce lust, but hopefully not repulsive enough to cause aversion to arise.

Who finds a skull attractive? For me, a skull also has the added perception as a symbol of death, so mindfulness of death is thrown in with the bargain.

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Re: Lust

Postby manas » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:59 pm

ihrjordan wrote:Yes I have 3 and I think I know where this is going. I don't want you to get the wrong idea I treat women very well I'm very respectful and nice. It's just the lust driving me crazy. I work in retail right now so I'm around women like 90% of the time and on the outside I try to be the nicest I can be to women but on the inside I feel like I'm being torched by a fire :cry:


fgs man get yourself a girlfriend! This 'being touched by a fire' feeling is normal and healthy for a young guy, and as you are not a monk or about to become one, just face reality: you don't sound ready for celibacy, to me. In fact you might do yourself emotional damage if you artificially try to repress such a strong urge at this time, and impose celibacy on yourself when it is clearly the wrong time for it. Just find someone that you do like talking to, spending time with, meditating with etc. 'A nice Buddhist girl' as was said earlier, if that helps.

:anjali:
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Re: Lust

Postby Coyote » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:07 pm

ihrjordan,

If you are focusing exclusively on mindfulness or vipassana meditation you might find it helpful to try samatha meditation as well, as I find this tends to have a cooling effect on defilement like lust and anger, especially if done habitually.

I like this approach, although there are others available:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Lust

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:28 pm

manas wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:Yes I have 3 and I think I know where this is going. I don't want you to get the wrong idea I treat women very well I'm very respectful and nice. It's just the lust driving me crazy. I work in retail right now so I'm around women like 90% of the time and on the outside I try to be the nicest I can be to women but on the inside I feel like I'm being torched by a fire :cry:


fgs man get yourself a girlfriend! This 'being touched by a fire' feeling is normal and healthy for a young guy, and as you are not a monk or about to become one, just face reality: you don't sound ready for celibacy, to me. In fact you might do yourself emotional damage if you artificially try to repress such a strong urge at this time, and impose celibacy on yourself when it is clearly the wrong time for it. Just find someone that you do like talking to, spending time with, meditating with etc. 'A nice Buddhist girl' as was said earlier, if that helps.

:anjali:

When using the mahasi method you do SEE it arise a lot more and it can become overwhelming. Poke fun all you want, I know what I'm experiencing.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: Lust

Postby manas » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:46 am

ihrjordan wrote:When using the mahasi method you do SEE it arise a lot more and it can become overwhelming. Poke fun all you want, I know what I'm experiencing.


Hi jordan,

I promise you, I was not poking fun at your post/s, and I'm sorry you interpreted my last post in that way. Maybe it's not you as such that aroused my momentary frustration, but just the endless tirade of folks coming here trying to 'eradicate' or otherwise go to war with a perfectly natural and healthy desire that, especially in younger folks, ought to be explored in most cases, unless one is already quite spiritually advanced (from lifetimes of previous work, perhaps). But for most of us, trying to 'cope' with lust by fighting and suppressing it does, in most cases, more harm than if folks just learned a bit of self-acceptance, were more humble about where they were at in their spiritual journey, and just opted for moderation in sex instead, as well as making sex about more than just physical pleasure - ie, by having an actual relationship. Anyway, I've said all I can, I wish you well and I'm sorry if I caused offense - I didn't mean to.
'
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Re: Lust

Postby rgb1 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:27 am

The most important thing is our reaction ihrjordan. The initial lust arises and ceases quicky, but then there is all the thinking about and identifying with the lust, the physical reactions resulting from the lust and the disliking of the reactions, wanting them to go away. It is important to be aware of all these things. The more you become aware of them, their hold over you becomes less and less.
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Re: Lust

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:25 am

rgb1 wrote:The most important thing is our reaction ihrjordan. The initial lust arises and ceases quicky, but then there is all the thinking about and identifying with the lust, the physical reactions resulting from the lust and the disliking of the reactions, wanting them to go away. It is important to be aware of all these things. The more you become aware of them, their hold over you becomes less and less.

That is a good point. It's easy to slap a label on a series of events but doing so can lead to missing the finer details and progression of those events. This is seen in mundane life as well --- take global warming for example.
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Re: Lust

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:01 am

Hi ihrjordan,

From what I can gather, and what I have experienced, I think it's actually something reasonably common. Meditation commonly leads to a vitality and energy that can then become, umm..., directed in certain directions... :thinking:

So don't feel you are some sort of lone pervert... :tongue:

In a meditation context some very simple body part meditation can be useful. On the advice of one of my monastic teachers I've never bothered going further than "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", basically in a body-scan sort of way. I find I can use that as a grounding (primary) object to build concentration, instead of one of the other many possible objects, such as breath, touch, abdominal motion, metta, walking, or whatever. And it can dampen down lust quite effectively. I don't make any effort to be judgemental ("this skin is foul" or whatever), I just focus cyclicly on my head hair, body hair, etc...

You do seem a bit torn about the whole lust thing, and perhaps you're over analysing that, and your relationship attempts. But it's really hard to give useful advice on such a fraught subject through this medium. If you have real-life teachers, I'd encourage you to talk to one of them about it. You might be pleasently surprised how unsurprised they are by the question...

:anjali:
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Re: Lust

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:In a meditation context some very simple body part meditation can be useful. On the advice of one of my monastic teachers I've never bothered going further than "head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", basically in a body-scan sort of way.

Yes, I've read this is an instruction that some Thai meditation instructors at monasteries give to beginners. It's also in the Visuddhimagga.

It's not a bad idea to memorize the 31 parts of the body. You can do this rather quickly by breaking them down into groups and visualizing them.
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Re: Lust

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:37 am

Yes, I guess I could memorise them, but I find the first five (which comprises the visible outer part of the body) to be quite adequate for my purposes, and I prefer to keep my meditation objects as simple as possible, so I don't wind up with too much thinking and inner conversation. I find that works best for me in building mindfulness and concentration.

An alternative is to use the U Ban Kin/Goenka style of scanning up and down the whole body, which is nicely non-conceptual once you get the hang of it.

:anjali:
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Re: Lust

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:46 am

I recall that another antidote to the hindrance of lust is developing jhana - I'll see if I can find the reference. I think the idea is to replace coarse pleasant feeling with "unworldy" pleasant feeling.
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Re: Lust

Postby santa100 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:48 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:I recall that another antidote to the hindrance of lust is developing jhana - I'll see if I can find the reference. I think the idea is to replace coarse pleasant feeling with "unworldy" pleasant feeling.

Maybe these 2: MN 139:
Bhikkhus, these are the five strands of sense pleasures. Bhikkhus, if there arises any pleasantness and pleasure on account of these five strands of sense pleasures, it is called sense pleasure, vile pleasure of the not noble ordinary man. Bhikkhus, it should not be practised, should not be made much, I say it should be feared. Here, the bhikkhu secluded from sense desires and demerit, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion attains to the first jhaana. Overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally settled and brought to a single point and with joy and pleasantness born of concentration, attains to the second jhaana.....re.....attains to the third jhaana....re.....attains to the fourth jhaana. To this is said the non sensual pleasure, the pleasure of seclusion, appeasement and enlightenment. It should be practised, made much and should not be feared, I say. If it was said, knowing the evaluation of pleasantness, be yoked to internal pleasantness it was said on account of this.

and AN 5.176:
Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time.
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