Two cases - your assessment

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Do you like Rob's and the professor's demeanor?

I like Rob's demeanor
0
No votes
I don't like Rob's demeanor
2
67%
I like the professor's demeanor
0
No votes
I don't like the professor's demeanor
1
33%
 
Total votes : 3

Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:47 am

(if you vote please for the sake of objectivity don't select mutually exclusive answers, because it is a possibility)

CASE A wrote:
Jeff said, "Did you know, Rob? Normann told Claus that a month ago you'd confirmed last year's data to be accurate and asked that the accurate data is sent to him. So Claus sent him the last year's data."

After it was relayed, Rob replied, "I don't remember even speaking to Normann, let alone confirming this sort of thing. And he had to be sent the latest data we gathered and not that of the last year as was done by this good-for-nothing Claus."

At that moment Becky said, "But he could have thought it was OK, because you had mentioned it was accurate."

Having heard Becky's voice Rob turned to his close assistant, "You see, Jeff, how this good-for-nothing Becky strikes in. I sensed that she was going to brazenly usher a word just about now. Normann was clearly asking for the latest data. When this good-for-nothing Claus was asked for it, he should have checked whether there were any new records and so would have done the right thing. Then again who is this smarty pants Normann anyway, that he will be capable of doing justice to the latest data? Jeff, take it yourself, I'm sure you will put it to better use."



CASE B wrote:A scene in a university hallway

- Hey, buddy, have you seen our new chemistry professor?
- Uhm, no, but i can show where his room is.
- Oh, thanks buddy, that would be awesome.

Later

- So it's you who is our new chemistry professor? Jeez, please accept my apology for being so ignorant to call you 'buddy'.
- Right, it's because of your ignorance that you thought you could call me 'buddy'. But since you realized your mistake i of course accept your apology.



in addition to the poll, more precise questions would be:

'In what type of emotional or mental state do Rob and the professor appear to you?'

'Do you think their demeanor is skillful/wholesome or not?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by LXNDR on Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:08 am

I'm a little unclear on your phrasing, but I can see that you're mimicking some phrasing that's often found in the Nikayas. I wonder, anyway, if that's what you're thinking about here?

The reason I ask is due to the fact that it's inappropriate to take formulaic religious dialogue as a basis for psychoanalysis. The somewhat odious repetitions are certainly not conversational, are they? So, the foundation for this question is probably not very suitable to a well-directed conversation.

But, I could easily be mistaken. Do you have any thoughts, LXNDR, that could refine this issue?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4074
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:34 pm

if i say true or false the whole point of the plot will be voided

daverupa wrote:due to the fact that it's inappropriate to take formulaic religious dialogue as a basis for psychoanalysis. The somewhat odious repetitions are certainly not conversational, are they?


not sure about the aptness of the word 'odious', but repetitions could indeed not be conversational, however not everything in the Nikayas is repetitions, isn't it?
and even repetitions in many cases serve as a framing which every time is stuffed with different content
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby daverupa » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:40 pm

It's true, there are many frames used throughout the Nikayas, to various ends and with various provenances and so on. It's all contextual, as you say.

So then, a poll that abstracts out of this contextual stew a certain set of formulaic statements is an attempt to form conclusions that ignore context, I think you'll agree - you say this might void your whole enterprise here, but if these common-sense issues can defeat the effort, pursuing the question as asked isn't going to be useful...

I think this is probably a case where, instead of using a poll to make a point, you might just post your own vote and your reasoning behind it, and we can have an actual conversation.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4074
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:59 pm

daverupa wrote:So then, a poll that abstracts out of this contextual stew a certain set of formulaic statements is an attempt to form conclusions that ignore context, I think you'll agree - you say this might void your whole enterprise here, but if these common-sense issues can defeat the effort, pursuing the question as asked isn't going to be useful...

I think this is probably a case where, instead of using a poll to make a point, you might just post your own vote and your reasoning behind it, and we can have an actual conversation.


all context relevant for assessment of a real life situation has been secured, i specifically made sure that nothing is overlooked, any other context may influence the opinion, i could tell what i think, but that might also have some influence, so i want it to be as pristine and as objective as possible, and i believe it's more engaging this way
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby perkele » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:32 pm

I don't like Rob's demeanor. Clearly, he himself got the story wrong, and then gets pissed at everyone else.

For the professor, can't say I like or dislike it. I don't see anything wrong there.

:sage:
perkele
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:27 pm

Later

- So it's you who is our new chemistry professor? Jeez, please accept my apology for being so ignorant to call you 'buddy'.
- Right, it's because of your ignorance that you thought you could call me 'buddy'. But since you realized your mistake i of course accept your apology.


Were you perhaps thinking of this and similar passages in the suttas?
"Surely, the Teacher has come to me! Surely, the One Well-gone has come to me! Surely, the Rightly Self-awakened One has come to me!" Getting up from his seat, arranging his upper robe over one shoulder, and bowing down with his head at the Blessed One's feet, he said, "A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to address the Blessed One as 'friend.' May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may achieve restraint in the future."

"Yes, monk, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to address me as 'friend.' But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and achieves restraint in the future."


If so, it might be worth reflecting on the differences between esteemed chemists and Buddhas.

"M. Lavoisier! May I receive the full ordination as a lab assistant..."
User avatar
Sam Vara
 
Posts: 915
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:30 pm

And this one:
Having heard Becky's voice Rob turned to his close assistant, "You see, Jeff, how this good-for-nothing Becky strikes in. I sensed that she was going to brazenly usher a word just about now. Normann was clearly asking for the latest data. When this good-for-nothing Claus was asked for it, he should have checked whether there were any new records and so would have done the right thing. Then again who is this smarty pants Normann anyway, that he will be capable of doing justice to the latest data? Jeff, take it yourself, I'm sure you will put it to better use."


Could it be related to
the Blessed One said to Ven. Ānanda, "Look, Ānanda, at how this worthless Udāyin interrupts. I knew just now that he would interrupt in an inappropriate way. From the very beginning, Potaliputta the wanderer was asking about the three kinds of feeling. When this worthless Samiddhi was asked by him in this way, he should have answered, 'Having intentionally done — with body, with speech, or with mind — an action that is to be felt as pleasure, one experiences pleasure. Having intentionally done — with body, with speech, or with mind — an action that is to be felt as pain, one experiences pain. Having intentionally done — with body, with speech, or with mind — an action that is to be felt as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, one experiences neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Answering this way, this worthless Samiddhi would have rightly answered Potaliputta the wanderer. But then who [3] are these wanderers of other sects, foolish & inexperienced? And who would understand the Tathāgata's greater analysis of action — if you were to listen, Ānanda, to the Tathāgata analyzing the greater analysis of action?"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.136.than.html


For myself, I consider Rob to be an accomplished data analysis manager. Moreover fully awake, perfect in conduct and understanding, the knower of the worlds. His annual appraisal shows that he trains perfectly those that wish to be trained, including both Gods and humans, and that he is awake and holy.
User avatar
Sam Vara
 
Posts: 915
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:01 am

spot on, Sam Vara

thank you for ruining the plot :smile: but then i forgot to ask not to do it

after it is known who the main character is assessment loses its value due to bias, what would be considered imperfect in ordinary people becomes perfect in revered religious figures with either an explanation attached, a claim that we just don't understand or out of sheer belief

these reactions don't quite match the virtues an arahant is said to be endowed with

this doesn't necessarily mean the real Gotama Buddha at any time reacted this way, it might only be his literary character
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby culaavuso » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:08 am

LXNDR wrote:these reactions don't quite match the virtues an arahant is said to be endowed with


It might be helpful to remember MN 58 or AN 4.111 when reading such passages

MN 58: Abhayarājakumāra Sutta wrote:In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.


AN 4.111: Kesi Sutta wrote:Kesi, I train a tamable person [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness & harshness.
culaavuso
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:18 am

culaavuso wrote:
LXNDR wrote:these reactions don't quite match the virtues an arahant is said to be endowed with


It might be helpful to remember MN 58 or AN 4.111 when reading such passages

MN 58: Abhayarājakumāra Sutta wrote:In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.


AN 4.111: Kesi Sutta wrote:Kesi, I train a tamable person [sometimes] with gentleness, [sometimes] with harshness, [sometimes] with both gentleness & harshness.



does this mean that qualities of arahants don't apply to buddhas?
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby culaavuso » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:21 am

LXNDR wrote:does this mean that qualities of arahants don't apply to buddhas?


What qualities of arahants prohibit speech of the type quoted above by Sam Vara?
culaavuso
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:28 am

culaavuso wrote:
LXNDR wrote:does this mean that qualities of arahants don't apply to buddhas?


What qualities of arahants prohibit speech of the type quoted above by Sam Vara?


speech is often an expression of a psychological state. let me first ask you: what do you make of the emotional and mental state of the Buddha's character in these passages?
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby culaavuso » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:21 am

LXNDR wrote:speech is often an expression of a psychological state. let me first ask you: what do you make of the emotional and mental state of the Buddha's character in these passages?


One reading could be that the emotional state is compassion and the mental state is an awareness of what words would be most conducive to the long term welfare and happiness of the listeners as well as individuals that the listeners directly influence. An example of compassionate action that might seem unduly harsh without taking a long term perspective is given in MN 58 before the previously quoted passage.

MN 58: Abhayarājakumāra Sutta wrote:Now at that time a baby boy was lying face-up on the prince's lap. So the Blessed One said to the prince, "What do you think, prince: If this young boy, through your own negligence or that of the nurse, were to take a stick or a piece of gravel into its mouth, what would you do?"

"I would take it out, lord. If I couldn't get it out right away, then holding its head in my left hand and crooking a finger of my right, I would take it out, even if it meant drawing blood. Why is that? Because I have sympathy for the young boy."
culaavuso
 
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Two cases - your assessment

Postby LXNDR » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:00 am

culaavuso wrote:
LXNDR wrote:speech is often an expression of a psychological state. let me first ask you: what do you make of the emotional and mental state of the Buddha's character in these passages?


One reading could be that the emotional state is compassion and the mental state is an awareness of what words would be most conducive to the long term welfare and happiness of the listeners as well as individuals that the listeners directly influence. An example of compassionate action that might seem unduly harsh without taking a long term perspective is given in MN 58 before the previously quoted passage.


i hope you read the entire stories in the referenced suttas

it's not so much about the words it's about the emotion behind them in the case of Udayin and Samiddhi, one can say unendearing words with perfect calm and poker face, also unendearing words don't have to be insults do they? when a person fulminates on three others in just one utterance that must tell something about his emotions

let's take away the context, because it pollutes the perception, look at it as if it were a mundane conversation between individuals, just like one i attempted to mimic in my initial post

what would be your impression?
LXNDR
 
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am


Return to Ethical Conduct

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest