Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
culaavuso
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby culaavuso » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:36 am

Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.


4'33"

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mikenz66
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:12 am

culaavuso wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.


4'33"

I saw that live once (in the middle of a concert of Cage prepared piano pieces) and it was actually surprisingly effective and engaging. I'm not joking, actually sitting attentively for 4'33" listening to nothing is an interesting experience...

:anjali:
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Mkoll
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:20 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
alan wrote:In the suttas we often encounter a group talking nonsense, blathering on. The Buddha always admonishes them.
Is he being a snob?
I would say no, he's justly advising against foolish noise. What is noise? That which does not produce beneficial results or add to the quality of your mind.
What adds to the quality of your mind? That which increases awareness, that which cleanses, that which inspires.

False analogy. We're not talking about the Buddha's teaching right now. We're talking about music.

You're saying that since you don't like to listen to goth or metal music, therefore goth and metal music aren't music.
It's like saying since I don't like to eat oatmeal or raisins, therefore oatmeal and raisins aren't foods.

And for the record, oatmeal and raisins are great; I'm just using them as examples.

You're right, Mkoll, at least in grammatical terms, but Alan does have a good point: we advised not to waste our time on foolish occupations or idle speech and IMO that applies to rubbishy music as well.
However, what music is thought to be rubbishy and what isn't varies wildly from one person to another.
I would argue that music which is deliberately ugly or deliberately stirs up ugly emotions (hate, violence, etc) is un-Buddhist and music which encourages calm, blissful thoughts or positive action is dhammically ideal. There's a lot of middle ground between those extremes, however, and whether (e.g.) Schubert is better than Coltrane seems to be merely a matter of taste and listening experience. I do agree with Alan's last post, though: Music is at its best when it aims high.

:juggling:
Kim

What the Buddha advises for serious practitioners is to refrain from music altogether. There is no Dhammically ideal music.

Uposatha Sutta, AN 8.41 wrote:7. "Bhikkhus. Ariyan disciples in this Religion reflect thus:

"'All arahants, for as long as life lasts, have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. Nor do they bedeck themselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume.'

"All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. You do not bedeck yourselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you. This is the seventh factor of the Uposatha.
[my emphasis added]

You could argue that listening to certain types of music are relatively more "wholesome" than listening to other types. I would even agree that listening to jazz or classical is more "wholesome" than listening to death metal. But listening to either form of music is not "Dhammically wholesome", which is what that sutta is talking about.

One should be very clear about what is strictly "Dhammically wholesome" and what is not.
Peace,
James

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:56 am

alan wrote: Maybe that's why I don't like people in general.

I would never have guessed.... :roll:

They interfere with my waves.

What you permit others to do, and how they affect you, is your problem, not theirs.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:09 am

mikenz66 wrote:
culaavuso wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:Music is at its best when it aims high.


4'33"

I saw that live once (in the middle of a concert of Cage prepared piano pieces) and it was actually surprisingly effective and engaging. I'm not joking, actually sitting attentively for 4'33" listening to nothing is an interesting experience...

:anjali:
Mike

It is, at least partly, an exercise in mindfulness.
Did you really hear nothing, or did you hear all sorts of things that you rarely pay attention to?

It's also a comment on how regarding something as 'music' changes the way we perceive it.

You can play it yourself, of course, any time.

:thinking:
Kim

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:12 am

Mkoll wrote:What the Buddha advises for serious practitioners is to refrain from music altogether. There is no Dhammically ideal music.
...
You could argue that listening to certain types of music are relatively more "wholesome" than listening to other types. I would even agree that listening to jazz or classical is more "wholesome" than listening to death metal. But listening to either form of music is not "Dhammically wholesome", which is what that sutta is talking about.

One should be very clear about what is strictly "Dhammically wholesome" and what is not.

Yes. I knew that but I was a bit sloppy in my choice of words.
Sorry.

:namaste:
Kim

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Mkoll
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:20 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What the Buddha advises for serious practitioners is to refrain from music altogether. There is no Dhammically ideal music.
...
You could argue that listening to certain types of music are relatively more "wholesome" than listening to other types. I would even agree that listening to jazz or classical is more "wholesome" than listening to death metal. But listening to either form of music is not "Dhammically wholesome", which is what that sutta is talking about.

One should be very clear about what is strictly "Dhammically wholesome" and what is not.

Yes. I knew that but I was a bit sloppy in my choice of words.
Sorry.

:namaste:
Kim

No worries! I had an inkling that that was the case. Just pointing it out for anyone who didn't know.

:anjali:
Peace,
James

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:30 am

4.33 that is the kind of music I am listening to now days.
:)
Great performance!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY7UK-6aaNA

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:33 am

Kim OHara wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I saw that live once (in the middle of a concert of Cage prepared piano pieces) and it was actually surprisingly effective and engaging. I'm not joking, actually sitting attentively for 4'33" listening to nothing is an interesting experience...

:anjali:
Mike

It is, at least partly, an exercise in mindfulness.
Did you really hear nothing, or did you hear all sorts of things that you rarely pay attention to?

It's also a comment on how regarding something as 'music' changes the way we perceive it.

You can play it yourself, of course, any time.

:thinking:
Kim

Yes, of course it's a kind of mindfulness thing. It was about 25 years ago, so I don't remember all the details.

It's not the same playing it by yourself. A concert-hall full of people doing the same thing is a very different experience. Of course, that goes for any musical performance...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby wolf1 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:21 am

Buddha adviced that we should avoid to BAD SPECH, BAD WORDS, BAD TALKINGS, BAD FRIENDS. in metal, goth, punk and similar music are there right spech, right words, right talkings? not so....... dark spech, dark words, dark talking, dark friends.

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:26 am

The Mahākammavibhanga Sutta should be studied to learn more. It really is very difficult to know who will be reborn in hell, and who will escape. The virtuous who die with evil thoughts will be, while the wicked who die with wholesome thoughts will not.

Anyone who is not a Stream-winner might be reborn in hell after this life — to reduce the risks of a low rebirth we should all practice the Dhamma as well as we can manage with a sense of urgency.
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby wolf1 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:33 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Mahākammavibhanga Sutta should be studied to learn more. It really is very difficult to know who will be reborn in hell, and who will escape. The virtuous who die with evil thoughts will be, while the wicked who die with wholesome thoughts will not.

Anyone who is not a Stream-winner might be reborn in hell after this life — to reduce the risks of a low rebirth we should all practice the Dhamma as well as we can manage with a sense of urgency.


Venerable. :namaste: There are some suttas about who follow the Dhamma can not reborn in lower worlds. if the person is not a Stream Entry but made a lot of right effort in regulary meditations, and have big faith in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha then can not born in lower world. since the lot of right efforts and faith will help at death.

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:59 am

wolf1 wrote: i asked a teacher about it. he told that who listen these music such person will reborn in hell.


Just out of curiosity, was that a Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana teacher ?

I think with loud heavy mental music, the hell one is reborn in is probably the Hell of Hearing Loss!

I used to listen to different kinds of music a lot, especially when I was married to a musician. However after I got involved with Buddhist practice, it gradually faded from my 'must have's' until discovered that I prefer silence.

:anjali:

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby wolf1 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:13 am

Aloka wrote:
wolf1 wrote: i asked a teacher about it. he told that who listen these music such person will reborn in hell.


Just out of curiosity, was that a Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana teacher ?

I think with loud heavy mental music, the hell one is reborn in is probably the Hell of Hearing Loss!

I used to listen to different kinds of music a lot, especially when I was married to a musician. However after I got involved with Buddhist practice, it gradually faded from my 'must have's' until discovered that I prefer silence.

:anjali:


THERAVADA

NO DOUBT i think rock, punk, metal and similar music are music of ANGER !! WHY? Why singers shout? why they singing as shouting? because they are all angry. drummers are also seems as angry. why? it seems like..... :computerproblem:

MUSIC OF ANGER, MUSIC OF BAD TALKING!

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Aloka
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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:31 am

NO DOUBT i think rock, punk, metal and similar music are music of ANGER !! WHY? Why singers shout? why they singing as shouting? because they are all angry. drummers are also seems as angry. why? it seems like.....

MUSIC OF ANGER, MUSIC OF BAD TALKING!


Lol, no need to shout in capitals as well!

I think a lot of it is just acting out a part for a particular type of music.

I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life.

Anyway, if you feel its negative, why listen to it ? Try something sweet & melodic instead .....or better still, natural sounds around you.

:anjali:

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:35 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Mahākammavibhanga Sutta should be studied to learn more. It really is very difficult to know who will be reborn in hell, and who will escape. The virtuous who die with evil thoughts will be, while the wicked who die with wholesome thoughts will not.

Anyone who is not a Stream-winner might be reborn in hell after this life — to reduce the risks of a low rebirth we should all practice the Dhamma as well as we can manage with a sense of urgency.


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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby wolf1 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:31 pm

Aloka wrote:
NO DOUBT i think rock, punk, metal and similar music are music of ANGER !! WHY? Why singers shout? why they singing as shouting? because they are all angry. drummers are also seems as angry. why? it seems like.....

MUSIC OF ANGER, MUSIC OF BAD TALKING!


Lol, no need to shout in capitals as well!

I think a lot of it is just acting out a part for a particular type of music.

I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life.

Anyway, if you feel its negative, why listen to it ? Try something sweet & melodic instead .....or better still, natural sounds around you.

:anjali:


i don't listen any metal rock punk or similar music, i stopped it 5 or 6 months ago. and i will never listen again. "
I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life." - peoples can feel hate in their heart. it's inner hate. they don't talking about their angry. peoples can feel silent, sad hate in their heart.

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Aloka wrote:I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life


wolf1 wrote:peoples can feel hate in their heart. it's inner hate. they don't talking about their angry. peoples can feel silent, sad hate in their heart


You've never met my friends, so you shouldn't make wild assumptions about them.


.

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby martinfrank » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:23 pm

Aloka wrote:
Aloka wrote:I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life


wolf1 wrote:peoples can feel hate in their heart. it's inner hate. they don't talking about their angry. peoples can feel silent, sad hate in their heart


You've never met my friends, so you shouldn't make wild assumptions about them.


.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99BVuDezl0s#t=251 Long live Black Veil Brides!

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Re: Practice Buddhism and listening metal and goth music

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:13 pm

wolf1 wrote:i don't listen any metal rock punk or similar music, i stopped it 5 or 6 months ago. and i will never listen again. "
I know musicians (including metal) who are really gentle & mild natured. They are certainly not angry people in everyday life." - peoples can feel hate in their heart. it's inner hate. they don't talking about their angry. peoples can feel silent, sad hate in their heart.

Unless you're a non-returner, you've got the root of hate, aversion, in your heart as an underlying tendency. So you're in good company. :tongue:
Peace,
James


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