When Buddhists get a tick....

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:26 pm

Virgo wrote: Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on.
You don't know what the results will be of the death of our eye-worm, which you have refused to save by becoming its host. All you are offering in response is threatening fire and brimstone finger shaking worthy of any fundamentalist Xtian.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:28 pm

thereductor wrote:You know what I would swat, if I had the chance? This thread.

May it die, and soon.
I was inclined to shut this down early on it is life, but was asked to keep it open. But I will shut it down shortly.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:32 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on.
You don't know what the results will be of the death of our eye-worm, which you have refused to save by becoming its host. All you are offering in response is threatening fire and brimstone finger shaking worthy of any fundamentalist Xtian.

Tell it to the Buddha, who taught the law of kamma correctly, as it is.

Kevin
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:37 pm

Virgo wrote:]

If I were a putthujana,
That's right; you claimed of yourself the status requiring being gifted with honor and deference.

I would probably hold out as long as I could but eventually give in and have it removed. I would by relieved when it was out, but the over situation would sadden me. At this point, just as with the tick, that is not possible. I don't hold others to my level of sila because they are likely putthujanas. I do think people should do their best not to kill though. You have to remind yourself that the body is not yours, the blood is not yours, not of it is.

Be well,

Kevin
The body may not be yours, but to heedlessly and needlessly let the vehicle of awakening be damaged is a violation of the first precept as well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:40 pm

Goedert wrote:Tilt, analysing it with the first precept role, it is possible to remove it, but we have to be with shame.

. . .

ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE by Janakabhivamsa, Ashin
Interesting shift in position from you. Good to see.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:42 pm

CETASIKAS (MENTAL FACTORS OF CONCOMITANTS)
Cetasikas Determine the Mind

In the chapter on citta (mind), the concepts of good and evil mind have already been explained. But as the only function of the mind is to know the objects, it cannot by itself make good or evil. It arises together with different mental factors cetasikas; it becomes good or evil accordingly under the influence of good or evil mental factors. Mental factors associated with the mind induce it to become good or evil.

For example: Even though water is in itself colourless it becomes red, yellow, blue or black dye. In like manner the mind behaves. Therefore, you should next pursue the study of mental factors so that you may understand good and evil minds.

Maxim:

Mind can only know objects; it by itself cannot determine good and evil. It is on account of the different cetasikas (mental factors) that the mind becomes good or evil.

AKUSALA CETASIKAS (UNWHOLESOME MENTAL FACTORS)

Fourteen unwholesome mental factors that influence the mind:

1. Moha (delusion)
2. Ahirika (shameless)
3. Anottappa (utter recklessness, not having normal dread)
4. Uddhacca (distraction, restlessness)
5. Lobha (greed)
6. Ditthi (wrong view)
7. Mana (conceit)
8. Dosa (hatred, anger)
9. Issa (envy)
10. Macchariya (jealousy, selfishness)
11. Kukkucca (worry)
12. Thina (sloth)
13. Middha (torpor)
14. Vicikiccha (sceptical doubt)

Cetana is Kamma

The Buddha says that cetana is kamma; volition is ethical action whether good or bad in daily life, cetana; volition is the chief. Let us assume a man was brutally attack and killed by a mob. In this atrocious deed, the blows of the most attackers were ineffective; only one member of the mob, prompted by a strong will, cruelly gave blow after blow which resulted in the victim's death. So only this man will be the culprit of the murder. Like wise a number of combinations of citta-cetasika function together in both kusala kamma (good actions) such as making of offering (dana) or observance of precept (sila) and akusala kamma (bad actions) such as killing (panatipata). In such activities it is the strong cetana (will) which is the most potent and post responsible and which determines your destiny and appropriate results here or hereafter.
Cetana (volition) is the strongest force in the world, prompting or encouraging all kinds of kamma (actions) and their effects. Cetana is the true motive force of all kamma actions; hence the saying, "Cetana is the maker, the true culprit of kamma actions."
Therefore the Buddha explicitly taught, "Cetanaham Bhikkhave kammam vadami - O Bhikkhus! I declare that cetana (will) to be kamma (action)." So a strong will makes a robust kamma, moral or immoral. If your will is feeble your action is also week.

CARITA (NATURE, CHARACTER OR HABITUAL CONDUCT)

Carita is a predominant nature in one's behavioral pattern.

Carita is of six types:

1. Raga carita (the greedy or passionate nature)
2. Dosa carita (the angry nature)
3. Moha carita (the deluded nature)
4. Saddha carita (the faithful nature)
5. Buddhi carita (the intelligent nature)
6. Vitakka carita (the ruminating or pondering nature)

The first three are bad tendencies and the later three are good. A person can have one or a mixture of two or three caritas.
How to Judge A Person's Carita

One can generally identify a person's carita by watching attentively his gestures and movements, his style of living, the food he likes and his behavioural pattern. Person with raga carita and those with saddha carita display common carita and those with buddhi carita. And persons with moha carita and those with vitakka carita are similar in nature.

Person with Raga Carita and Saddha Carita

Both persons are usually gentle and polite. They are generally clean, neat and tidy. They prefer sweet, aromatic and tender food. Yet there are vast differences between these two characters. The one with raga carita, the lustful one has attachement to five sensual pleasures. He is wily, cunning, proud and greedy. On the contrary, the one with saddha carita, is more truthful and honest. He is generous in nature, and hence is liberal in charity. He is more or less pious, reveres the Three Jewels and enjoying listening to Dhamma discourses.

Maxim:

Both raga carita and saddha carita person are civilised and are fond of luxury. But the former is greedy, staingy, lustful and cunning while the latter is liberal, generous, devoted and pious.

Person with Dosa Carita and Buddhi

Both types are crude and unbecoming in department. They are usually slipshod and untidy. Both types live lour, salty, bitter or pungent food. They cannot understand sights and sounds. They always react with abusive words, hatred, violence, and wrath. So the dosa dominant person and the buddhi dominant person have common characteristics which become their second nature. (until such tiles as when they begin to reform).

Yet they differ vastly in many respects. The dosa carita person always shows grudge, revenge, envy, jealousy, slander, pride and stubbornness. The buddhi carita person is the opposite pole of the dosa domaint. He is free from grudge, jealousy and is amenable to good advice. He does everything with mindfulness and wisdom. He is quite aware of the coming existences and so is fond of doing good deeds for fulfilment of paramis.

Maxim:

A dosa dominant person is crude in manner, untidy and undisciplined, loves pungent food and reacts violently to ugly visual forms, and unpleasant sounds. A buddhi dominant person is free from the evils of the dosa carita. He is ready to learn from the wise and is generally mindful. He is farsighted and fond of virtuous deeds.

Person with Moha Carita and Vitakka Carita

A moha based person is associated with ignorance, delusion and forgetfulness. He is usually perplexed and confused. He cannot distinguished between right and wrong, good and bad. He is incapable of making his own judgements, so follows the opinion of others in denouncing or praising some one. Since he is devoid of sati and panna (wisdom) he waste his time by being lazy, indolent and sceptic. He is the victim of sloth and torpor.

Like moha carita, the vitakka carita person also lives in the way of uncertainty and scepticism. He is indolent and incapable of doing moral deeds. He flocks with those of the same feather. He indulges in useless babbles, speculations and imaginations, so he becomes a useless person, squandering his time in vain.

Maxim:

A moha dominant person is generally idle, confused and deluded. He cannot differentiate vice from virtue and right from wrong. He lacks of power of judgement and is void of sati and panna. As for vitakka person he is incapable of doing moral deeds being very lazy. He talks away his precious times and does nothing substantial.

The Origin of Carita

Carita distinguished one person from another, people differ in outlook, attitude, habit and tendency. Why? In the previous existences if his deeds were mostly influenced by greed, then kamma and vipaka cause him to be raga dominant. If dosa was significant in his deeds in the past lives his tendency in the present existence would be one of dosa carita. If ignorance accompanied his kamma in the past lives, now the result will be a moha dominant person. If a person loved wisdom in the past and did meritorious deeds pertaining to panna, he will now be reborn as a buddhi carita person.

In the same fashion, deeds accompanied by saddha and vitaka will correspondingly result in saddha carita and vitakka carita. Thus we can now see that past deeds are the root cause of present carita. We ought, therefore, to perform meritorious deeds accompanied by saddha and panna so as to acquire good caritas in the next existences

KAMMA (ACTION AND DEED)

WHAT IS KAMMA?

KAMMA MEANS ACTION or deed. Kamma is of three kinds: thought, word and physical action.

Whatever you do with your limbs is kaya kamma (physical deed). Take for instance killing some being or giving charity, etc.

Verbal kamma means the words that you utter. Imperatives such as "Kill that animal" or "Offer alms to the monk", are verbal kamma. Other forms of exhortions, lying, preaching, all fall into this category.

Mental kamma means the thoughts that occur in your mind, short of physical action and utterances by mouth. Evil thoughts such as "How I wish all property were mine" are mental kamma. Pity, compassion, sympathy, appreciative joy, practising bhavana meditation are also different forms of mental kamma.

The Culprit

The three forms of kamma do not occur automatically. For instance, in the act of killing the hand gets hold of the dagger. There is bound to be a prompting force makes you to utter certain words. While you are asleep there occurs no mental kamma even though many units of consciousness are arising. We now come to the conclusion therefore, that there must be a force, a potency which is different from the basic mind; and this force, is the culprit of the three kamma actions. Just as there is always a culprit in every crime, there is a potency or a force that impels three forms of deeds.

Cetana is the Culprit

The culprit which prompts the three kamma actions is nothing but the mental concomitant, cetana cetasika which occurs in the mind-continuum of beings. This cetana is the busiest, the most active of all cetasikas. Because cetana impels to perform a certain deed, because cetana is responsible for the completion of every kamma action, cetana is commonly called kamma.

ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE by Janakabhivamsa, Ashin


Just to clarify the notion of kamma.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Wind » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:45 pm

This question reminds me of the tapeworm scenario posted in another thread. If you don't kill the tapeworm, it will eventually eat you to death. And I think the best answer is try to remove it without killing it, but if it dies then simply live with the bad karma, but even those who had killed can still attain enlightenment here and now. Besides your intention was not entirely to kill but rested on saving your own life. Nevertheless, Arahan would not kill in this situation since he already regards form as not self and has done what needs to be done in this holy life. Stream-enterer likewise would not kill as he no longer bound to any states of woe and well on his way to Nibbana in at most 7 births.
Last edited by Wind on Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:49 pm

Are we all done?
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:14 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on.
You don't know what the results will be of the death of our eye-worm, which you have refused to save by becoming its host. All you are offering in response is threatening fire and brimstone finger shaking worthy of any fundamentalist Xtian.

Tell it to the Buddha, who taught the law of kamma correctly, as it is.

Kevin
Unless, in addition to claiming ariya status, you are now claiming to understand the workings of kamma, which the Buddha said are unfathomable, you simply do not know what would happen with removal and death of our worm friend.

From Wiki in an article on ahimsa and having to do with war:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jh_BKJZlO2AJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahimsa+%22(1)+the+presence+of+a+living+being,+human+or+animal%3B%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

According to Theravada commentaries, there are five requisite factors that must all be fulfilled for an act to be both an act of killing and to be karmically negative. These are: (1) the presence of a living being, human or animal; (2) the knowledge that the being is a living being; (3) the intent to kill; (4) the act of killing by some means; and (5) the resulting death. Some Buddhists have argued on this basis that the act of killing is complicated, and its ethicization is predicated upon intent. Some have argued that in defensive postures, for example, the primary intention of a soldier is not to kill, but to save, and the act of killing in that situation would have minimal negative karmic repercussions.

Here we have Goedert's bit from the Wiki with his paranthetical comments:

[According to Theravada commentaries, there are five requisite factors that must all be fulfilled for an act to be both an act of killing and to be karmically negative.]

(1) the presence of a living being, human or animal;
A: Yes
(2) the knowledge that the being is a living being;
A: Yes
(3) the intent to kill;
A: No (If one person want to doctor to remove it because his health is in dangerous, there is no problem.)
Yes (If one person go to doctor with the intent to have vengance, because the person feels that her body is to holy, that is a problem. UnWholesome things are occurring in the mind of this person.)
(4) the act of killing by some means;
A: Yes
(5) the resulting death
A: Yes


Not perfect, but an improvement on much that has gone before. It is a good place to end this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:]

If I were a putthujana,
That's right; you claimed of yourself the status requiring being gifted with honor and deference.

I would probably hold out as long as I could but eventually give in and have it removed. I would by relieved when it was out, but the over situation would sadden me. At this point, just as with the tick, that is not possible. I don't hold others to my level of sila because they are likely putthujanas. I do think people should do their best not to kill though. You have to remind yourself that the body is not yours, the blood is not yours, not of it is.

Be well,

Kevin
The body may not be yours, but to heedlessly and needlessly let the vehicle of awakening be damaged is a violation of the first precept as well.


I totally agree with this.

We should not forget that metta Bhavana meditation INCLUDES ourselves as an object of our compassion, actually, that we should start with having compassion with ourselves and extend it from there, but the explanations also often point out that this may be the hardest part to do: compassion for ourselves.

If we allow damage to ourselves, we have a flaw in our intentions as well, since we too are a sentient being, and, as may be misunderstood, we are a human being, with the highest capacity to suffer, higher than a worm's.

It is very Noble not to kill any sentient beings intentionally, but at some points in this thread I felt fatally reminded of masochism, and to speak with Genkaku's mother I would suggest we don't try to be too holy before next Tuesday, because I noticed that some of those who wish to save the lives of worms and ticks at their own expense had zero first hand experience with those parasites, nor knew much the danger and suffering they cause. This first hand experience, however, is crucial to understand the suffering caused by parasites, and to talk from inexperience the letter o may be fulfilled, but then there is also the spirit of the teachings.

In all our dealings we have to analyse in which way we avoid the larger damage:

Is more damage done when a tick or worms gets removed and is perhaps killed in the process of, or is more damage done if a family father gets crippled and can't support and protect his family anymore?

The answer should be clear, but as I have seen in this thread, some believe the life of a tick is worth more than the health of a human being.

Is it so? :thinking:

The Buddha pointed out explicitely that we have an OBLIGATION to keep this body healthy, or else our ability to practice could get seriously damaged.

162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish.

166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.



That said, I am sad to see no Venerable has replied to this topic yet, but am thankful for all the replies it received, all the time and good will you invested, your research;- each of you contributed from the heart to the best of their knowledge, and my special thanks go to Tilt for monitoring this difficult thread in a very considerate way.

I know it wasn't easy.

Thank you all, may you all be safe from parasites, and if you ever get one, deal with it in a way that causes least harm to all involved, yourself included, may you find the best path.

Thanks to all.

With metta,

Anna
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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