When Buddhists get a tick....

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:28 pm

No more meta-discussion. Back to topic, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:enough with the aversion stuff


That's lovely of you, Sir. :smile:
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:50 pm

My understanding:

- Intentionally killing is unskillful.
- I would not kill a robber to protect my property, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma
- My property is anatta
- My body is anatta
- Ergo, I would not kill a tick to protect my body, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma

I am, however, far from perfect and deeply deluded with concepts of permanent self and fear of death... so in that situation I probably would kill the tick (regrettably), accepting the unwholesome kamma it creates and knowing I'll 'be the heir to it'.

As I say, I'm not perfect but I want to be. Maybe a better question would be, would an arahant kill a tick to save their own life? I don't think they would.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:51 pm

Hoo wrote:Leave the thread open, Tilt. I'm Buddhist, live in the heart of tick country and am interested in hearing as many differing views as may present themselves because I have this problem as well. I also have decreased immunity due to my chemo treatment which heightens my interest.

I find it hard to believe that this thread is only about 3-4 hours old and you're asking if it's done. It's not like it's taking up space on the shelf that's needed. Give it a cuple of days for people to even see it, reply if they have one, etc.


Hoo


Thank you, Hoo. You're such a dear. :hug:
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:56 pm

No more meta-discussion. Any further will be removed. Back to topic, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:56 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:My understanding:

- Intentionally killing is unskillful.
- I would not kill a robber to protect my property, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma
- My property is anatta
- My body is anatta
- Ergo, I would not kill a tick to protect my body, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma

I am, however, far from perfect and deeply deluded with concepts of permanent self and fear of death... so in that situation I probably would kill the tick (regrettably), accepting the unwholesome kamma it creates and knowing I'll 'be the heir to it'.

As I say, I'm not perfect but I want to be. Maybe a better question would be, would an arahant kill a tick to save their own life? I don't think they would.


I really woud like to hear what our Venerables think about this.

It's crossed my mind each time I discover a tick on me and have to pull it out.

I live in an area with Lyme infections and also meningo encephalitis, caused by ticks.

A good friend of mine is ill from Borreliose.

My brother had it.

I try to remove them alive, but I fail, sometimes, but I did not intend to kill them, so as was said before, the precept is not violated.

Perhaps a Venerable could say something to this?
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:02 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:My understanding:

- Intentionally killing is unskillful.
- I would not kill a robber to protect my property, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma
- My property is anatta
- My body is anatta
- Ergo, I would not kill a tick to protect my body, understanding that doing so would be creating uwholesome kamma.
You would kill a robber who was trying to kill you, or trying to kill your family?

You body may be anatta, but to willfully neglect it seems to be a problem. Also, keep in mind, that you cannot live without something dying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:05 pm

Test
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You would kill a robber who was trying to kill you, or trying to kill your family?
I think maybe ideally no... but I'm a coward. I've never been in this situation, but I'd like to think I would act to prevent the death of either myself or my family. It's a tough problem because I wouldn't say it's okay to kill in self defence and yet I'd probably do it. Hypocrite? Yes, but I believe if there was no conflict in my mind there'd be no progress.
tiltbillings wrote:You body may be anatta, but to willfully neglect it seems to be a problem. Also, keep in mind, that you cannot live without something dying.
All this being true, I simply don't know. Just giving my opinion in it's simplest terms: Killing is wrong but I'd probably do it if necessary. I'd prefer not to, but if I did so I wouldn't try to justify it - I'd accept the kamma created remorsefully.

Does that contradiction make sense?
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:27 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You would kill a robber who was trying to kill you, or trying to kill your family?
I think maybe ideally no... but I'm a coward. I've never been in this situation, but I'd like to think I would act to prevent the death of either myself or my family. It's a tough problem because I wouldn't say it's okay to kill in self defence and yet I'd probably do it. Hypocrite? Yes, but I believe if there was no conflict in my mind there'd be no progress.
tiltbillings wrote:You body may be anatta, but to willfully neglect it seems to be a problem. Also, keep in mind, that you cannot live without something dying.
All this being true, I simply don't know. Just giving my opinion in it's simplest terms: Killing is wrong but I'd probably do it if necessary. I'd prefer not to, but if I did so I wouldn't try to justify it - I'd accept the kamma created remorsefully.

Does that contradiction make sense?
Life is hard.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:18 pm

Hi all,
PeterB wrote:To allow a tick to suck your blood is totally irresponsible and very dumb. They are carriers of a disease which can cripple you and/or cause you to go blind. What exactly are you trying to prove ? Don't justify your action by referring to Buddhadhamma , because it isnt anything to do with Buddhadhamma.


While I go to great pains not to kill living creatures including ants, spiders and other undesirable and irritating creatures, I am with Peter on this one. I will make every endeavour to remove a tick without killing it but if it dies as a result of its removal - then that is a sad but inintended collateral damage of risk mitigation. Our first responsibility is to ourselves and those who depend on us. Tolerating a parasite so that it can feed on you despite the significant health risks to oneself is misplaced compassion.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Hoo » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Pretty much the same ground that has been covered, but if it ticks you off to have it closed, it'll stay open. That does not bug me.


Thanks Tilt :)

I've been itching to see what others may share ;)

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:32 pm

Annapurna wrote:What would a Buddhist [monk] do, if he found a tick tightly hlding on to his skin? Leave it till it falls off?

Ticks can cause Borreliosis or Lyme disease as well as meningitis, and need to get removed as quickly as possible.

Not always can you save the tick, I've never been able to, and honestly, what for? To multiply?
:thinking:

This is not another fleas thread, mind you.

Ticks are a lot more dangerous than fleas, .... well, since we don't get the plague anymore.... plus you have one for several days, and can get a hold of it.

Or what's up with intestinal worms?

Well I found one boring into my skin and I left it to do its business. I should mention that I already have Lyme disease via tick bits. I live in the Northeast United States in a state where Lyme disease is rampant. I have had it for many years.

I should mention that if my Lyme disease had been gone at that point I might have become reinfected. I don't think it was gone at that time but I new that it was possible as it had not flared up in quite some time. If still infected, the virus being reintroduced into my body could cause it to flare up badly. As the tick was biting me I was thinking about the horrible ways I have suffered from Lyme disease in the past.

All the best,

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby octathlon » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:16 am

Hoo wrote:
Pretty much the same ground that has been covered, but if it ticks you off to have it closed, it'll stay open. That does not bug me.


Thanks Tilt :)

I've been itching to see what others may share ;)

Hoo


I appreciate having the thread left open until I had a chance to see it, even if it "sucks".
While removing the tick, I would be reminded of the negative results of clinging.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Hoo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:28 am

Ben wrote:....Our first responsibility is to ourselves and those who depend on us. Tolerating a parasite so that it can feed on you despite the significant health risks to oneself is misplaced compassion....


Hi Ben,

I'm not arguing with your point but wonder if you can explain further how you see it as "misplaced compassion" in this case. I've been thinking of it more as a "conflict in compassion," as if there is only room for compassion for one. I have a hard time seeing killing the tick as "less compassion, and acting in my interests as "more compassion."

Hoo......still trying to get a handle on this topic. :?:
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:36 am

Virgo wrote:[ As the tick was biting me I was thinking about the horrible ways I have suffered from Lyme disease in the past.
And I am sure you were also thinking about all the eggs that have been nourished by that tick sucking your blood and all the cute little ticklettes with Lyme disease that were born as a result of that nourishment just waiting to find someone new to infect and all the fun that that person will have by getting Lyme disease from ticks nourished by your blood. Now, that is wise compassion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Tex » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:50 am

Fede wrote:If you spread vaseline petroleum jelly around the mouth area of the tick, where they are attached, they can't breathe, and have to let go, or else they will suffocate.
I removed two such ticks from my dog, and three off a snake, in this way.


I wasn't aware of this, I will try it if my dog gets another tick. Thanks!
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"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:[ As the tick was biting me I was thinking about the horrible ways I have suffered from Lyme disease in the past.
And I am sure you were also thinking about all the eggs that have been nourished by that tick sucking your blood and all the cute little ticklettes with Lyme disease that were born as a result of that nourishment just waiting to find someone new to infect and all the fun that that person will have by getting Lyme disease from ticks nourished by your blood. Now, that is wise compassion.

Those eggs are not my concern and were not at the time. My concern was that, since it was probably a larval stage tick because it was tiny (even larval stage ticks can carry and transmit Lyme) that if I even touched it it would probably die. I simply did not want it to die. I have no control over wether it will live to lay any eggs, if it will live at all, if it will even get pregnant, if the babies will ever be born, if they will ever live long enough to bite anyone, or if the mother even really has Lyme which it will pass to its children. I don't even care if it was male or female.

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:25 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:[ As the tick was biting me I was thinking about the horrible ways I have suffered from Lyme disease in the past.
And I am sure you were also thinking about all the eggs that have been nourished by that tick sucking your blood and all the cute little ticklettes with Lyme disease that were born as a result of that nourishment just waiting to find someone new to infect and all the fun that that person will have by getting Lyme disease from ticks nourished by your blood. Now, that is wise compassion.

Those eggs are not my concern and were not at the time. My concern was that, since it was probably a larval stage tick because it was tiny (even larval stage ticks can carry and transmit Lyme) that if I even touched it it would probably die. It did not want it to die. I have no control over wether it will live to lay any eggs, if it will live at all, if it will even get pregnant, if the babies will ever be born, if they will ever live long enough to bit anyone, or if the mother even really has Lyme which it will pass to its children.

Kevin
You deliberately fed this tick; you deliberately allowed it go on its way after feeding, which is to say you take no responsibility for your actions in this, thereby jeopordizing others to the same fun you had with Lyme's disease.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:You deliberately fed this tick; you deliberately allowed it go on its way after feeding, which is to say you take no responsibility for your actions in this, thereby jeopordizing others to the same fun you had with Lyme's disease.

The tick took blood from me of its own accord. I did not invite it to feed. I simply found it feeding and instinctively knew that even moving it would likely kill it because it was so small. So therefore, I did not move it or remove it from my arm knowing that it might die if I did. I guess I enabled it.

Am I also responsible for all of the other ticks that go around infecting people because I don't personally go around killing all of them (the ticks, that is)?

Maybe I should go around killing them?

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