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Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:20 pm
by Ceisiwr
I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.

Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?

Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:34 pm
by bodom
clw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.

Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?

Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
I didnt get in trouble everytime i was drinking but everytime i was in trouble i was drinking. For me and alcohol there is no middle way. It has caused me enough trouble in my life and abstinence is not that big of a deal for me anymore.

I like what the Sigalovada Sutta has to say about alcohol:

"These are the six dangers inherent in heedlessness caused by intoxication: loss of immediate wealth, increased quarreling, susceptibility to illness, disrepute, indecent exposure, and weakened insight.

"Who plays with dice and drinks intoxicants, goes to women who are dear unto others as their own lives, associates with the mean and not with elders — he declines just as the moon during the waning half.

"Who is drunk, poor, destitute, still thirsty whilst drinking, frequents the bars, sinks in debt as a stone in water, swiftly brings disrepute to his family.

"Who by habit sleeps by day, and keeps late hours, is ever intoxicated, and is licentious, is not fit to lead a household life.

:namaste:

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:50 pm
by Ceisiwr
Thank you for those quotes

:namaste:

I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.

There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
There was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.

Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.

The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.


Then killed the warrior

Then had sex with the woman
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kamma

I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:53 pm
by bodom
clw_uk wrote:Thank you for those quotes

:namaste:

I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.

There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
There was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.

Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.

The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.


Then killed the warrior

Then had sex with the woman
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kamma

I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
I always liked that story. I can definitely relate. Once i got started drinking anything and everything was off the table.

:namaste:

Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:54 pm
by GrahamR
The problem with alcohol is after one glass you think you can have just one more, then maybe another ... then ...
I find it easier just not to drink at all.
with metta :bow:
GRAHAM
clw_uk wrote:Thank you for those quotes

:namaste:

I to cannot practice the middle way with alcohol, dont know when to say no once i start.

There is one story I like reguarding the drinking of alcohol
There was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.

Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.

The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.


Then killed the warrior

Then had sex with the woman
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kamma

I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:48 pm
by mountain
Its important to practice the panca-sila with fidelity. This supports and protects us and our practice.In the particular case of the use of alcohol its also includes the dangers inherant in alcohol based activities. I have often thought of booze as concentrated Mara in a bottle.
John

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:50 pm
by Ceisiwr
I have often thought of booze as concentrated Mara in a bottle.
:namaste:

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:42 pm
by fijiNut
§ A young man was discussing the precepts with Ajaan Fuang and came to number five, against taking intoxicants: "The Buddha forbade alcohol because most people lose their mindfulness when they drink it, right? But if you drink mindfully it's okay, isn't it, Than Phaw?"

"If you were really mindful," he answered, "you wouldn't drink it in the first place."

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:20 pm
by Annapurna
clw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.

Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?

Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
I have absolutely no desire left for alcohol, this fog in the head is :toilet:

Very seldom I drink a little as medicine when I ate too greasy and have indigestion.

That' s it.

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:33 am
by Ben
Hi Craig
clw_uk wrote:Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?
I don't know, but I do.
clw_uk wrote: Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
One can certainly drink in moderation. However, drinking any quantity is incompatible with the fifth precept. And sila is fundamental to mental cultivation.
Kind regards

Ben

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:01 am
by mikenz66
I agree with Ben. Any amount of alcohol messes with the mind.

I don't not drink because I think it's "bad". I don't drink because I know the mind is much clearer without it (from memory and from occasionally accidentally imbibing a little from supposedly non-alcoholic sources...).

Metta
Mike

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:50 am
by DhammaDan
I'm also completely abstinent when it comes to alcohol.

The other day actually, I went to a meet-up with one of my university groups to a bar/restaurant. The drinking seemed to get a little out of hand and one of the guys asked if I wanted anything. I politely refused and explained the precept. I was more comfortable because most of them are Buddhist (the club is mostly East Asians) and although they respected my lifestyle, it was surprising that they too were Buddhist and drink so heavily. I guess different cultures have taken on fairly different interpretations.

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:36 am
by Individual
clw_uk wrote:I have noticed a slight trend in some western buddhists appling the teaching of the middle way to alcohol, saying that as long as you dont over indulge then its ok. I myself, since becoming a buddhist, have not touched a drop as I feel the teachings are pretty clear in reguard to alcohol.

Does everyone here practice complete abstinence?

Do any of you agree that one can drink in moderation?
I feel I should practice abstinence from alcohol, based on experience, and because my father's an alcoholic...

...But I don't, because of craving. Not an alcoholic myself, but I occasionally enjoy getting a bit drunk (about 4-5 beers over a few hours), only at night of course, though. Drinking in the morning isn't good because of how awful you feel afterwards.

The important thing to recognize is the intention. Taking a substance with the intent to get intoxicated is reckless. And alcohol tastes awful, so people pretty much always drink it because of unskillful intentions.

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:36 am
by zavk
I must confess that I have not been able to abstain from intoxicants. But lucky for me, my body can only take a small amount of alcohol. I have 3 drinks over the course of the entire night and that's plenty for me. But I certainly don't see this as an excuse. I do feel the effects of alcohol on my practice. I can feel its clouding effects on the mind. And I do realise that there are consequences I have to bear. So far, I've managed to sit in the morning even when I drink the night before. I plan to keep doing so.

Perhaps I cannot be considered an upasaka. But I accept that this is where I'm at at this point of my life. I recognise that although I am as yet unable to keep the fifth precept, it can nevertheless be an aspiration of my spiritual endeavours.

Metta,
zavk

Re: Alcohol

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:40 am
by Individual
clw_uk wrote:
There was a monk who was meditating in a cave when Mara appeared before him along with wine, a woman and a warrior.

Mara said that the monk must either drink the wine, have sex with the woman or kill the warrior or otherwise Mara would kill him.

The monk considered, he knew that doing any of these things would be breaking the Vinaya but he decided to go with the one he thought would be least damaging, so he drank the wine.


Then killed the warrior

Then had sex with the woman
Think it puts accross quite well how drink can lead to making more unwholesome kamma

I refelct on this often when im tempted by a quick drink.
That is largely the allure of alcohol. When you get drunk, you feel an illusion of joy, strength, and confidence, by being mindless of the way things really are. In general, I think the feeling of euphoria associated with intoxicants can always be traced back to a kind of physiologically-conditioned mindlessness.