masturbation what's wrong?

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Pondera
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Pondera » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:16 am

The amount of pleasure released by one orgasm could be measured out in the course of an entire day. The problem with masturbation is that it impedes upon "genital mindfulness". Sex does the same thing. Watch out for march madness. It's a coming ;)
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:06 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Aloka
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:09 am

Oh gawd, the masturbation thread has reared its head again.

.

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Dhammanando
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:25 am

From Wikipedia's entry for John Harvey Kellogg (inventor of the breakfast cereal Kellogg's cornflakes).

    Views on Sexuality

    [...]

    He was an especially zealous campaigner against masturbation; this was an orthodox view during his lifetime, especially the earlier part. Kellogg was able to draw upon many medical sources' claims such as "neither the plague, nor war, nor small-pox, nor similar diseases, have produced results so disastrous to humanity as the pernicious habit of onanism," credited to one Dr. Adam Clarke. Kellogg strongly warned against the habit in his own words, claiming of masturbation-related deaths "such a victim literally dies by his own hand," among other condemnations. He felt that masturbation destroyed not only physical and mental health, but the moral health of individuals as well. Kellogg also believed the practice of this "solitary-vice" caused cancer of the womb, urinary diseases, nocturnal emissions, impotence, epilepsy, insanity, and mental and physical debility; "dimness of vision" was only briefly mentioned.

    Masturbation prevention

    Kellogg worked on the rehabilitation of masturbators, often employing extreme measures, even mutilation, on both sexes. He was an advocate of circumcising young boys to curb masturbation and applying phenol to a young woman's clitoris. In his Plain Facts for Old and Young, he wrote:

    “A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed.”

    [...]

    “Kellogg thought that masturbation was the worst evil one could commit; he often referred to it as "self-abuse". He was a leader of the anti-masturbation movement, and promoted extreme measures to prevent masturbation. In addition, Kellogg thought that diet played a huge role in masturbation and that a bland diet would decrease excitability and prevent masturbation. Thus, Kellogg invented Corn Flakes breakfast cereal in 1878. He hoped that feeding children this plain cereal every morning would help to combat the urges of "self-abuse".”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Bundokji » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:38 am

What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?
"On the highest throne in the world, we are seated, still, upon our arses"
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Dhammanando
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:55 am

Bundokji wrote:What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?


That masturbation, if not done excessively, is a harmless and blameless enjoyment does in fact appear to be the prevalent view among educated people throughout the developed world, excepting only those with a religious commitment (Roman Catholic, for example) which instructs them otherwise.

I don't think this has any particular effect on these people's practice of the threefold training. If they decide to ordain or to become brahmacāri householders, then they simply take on the monkish perspective on masturbation and stop doing it. (Whether this will be a hard or an easy thing to do doesn't seem to be much affected by what beliefs about masturbation one was raised with). If they remain kāmabhogi householders then the practice (for those who do it) simply persists as one of the various non-transgressive sensual pleasures that they may enjoy from time to time.
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:01 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Bundokji wrote:What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?


That masturbation, if not done excessively, is a harmless and blameless enjoyment does in fact appear to be the prevalent view among educated people throughout the developed world, excepting only those with a religious commitment (Roman Catholic, for example) which instructs them otherwise.

I don't think this has any particular effect on these people's practice of the threefold training. If they decide to ordain or to become brahmacāri householders, then they simply take on the monkish perspective on masturbation and stop doing it. (Whether this will be a hard or an easy thing to do doesn't seem to be much affected by what beliefs about masturbation one was raised with). If they remain kāmabhogi householders then the practice (for those who do it) simply persists as one of the various non-transgressive sensual pleasures that they may enjoy from time to time.
Thank you. In this long and sometimes very silly thread, this is the most concise, reasonable, and Dhamma appropriate statement to date.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

Bundokji
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Bundokji » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:01 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Bundokji wrote:What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?


That masturbation, if not done excessively, is a harmless and blameless enjoyment does in fact appear to be the prevalent view among educated people throughout the developed world, excepting only those with a religious commitment (Roman Catholic, for example) which instructs them otherwise.

I don't think this has any particular effect on these people's practice of the threefold training. If they decide to ordain or to become brahmacāri householders, then they simply take on the monkish perspective on masturbation and stop doing it. (Whether this will be a hard or an easy thing to do doesn't seem to be much affected by what beliefs about masturbation one was raised with). If they remain kāmabhogi householders then the practice (for those who do it) simply persists as one of the various non-transgressive sensual pleasures that they may enjoy from time to time.


Thanks Bhante :anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Aloka » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Thank you. In this long and sometimes very silly thread, this is the most concise, reasonable, and Dhamma appropriate statement to date.


I totally agree.


:anjali:

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby DC2R » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:18 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Bundokji wrote:What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?


That masturbation, if not done excessively, is a harmless and blameless enjoyment does in fact appear to be the prevalent view among educated people throughout the developed world, excepting only those with a religious commitment (Roman Catholic, for example) which instructs them otherwise.

I don't think this has any particular effect on these people's practice of the threefold training. If they decide to ordain or to become brahmacāri householders, then they simply take on the monkish perspective on masturbation and stop doing it. (Whether this will be a hard or an easy thing to do doesn't seem to be much affected by what beliefs about masturbation one was raised with). If they remain kāmabhogi householders then the practice (for those who do it) simply persists as one of the various non-transgressive sensual pleasures that they may enjoy from time to time.


End thread. :thumbsup:
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:55 pm

DC2R wrote:End thread. :thumbsup:


That's a "relief". :tongue:
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Saoshun » Sun May 22, 2016 7:53 am

Masturbation is lesser "evil" because it will let the poison out and shut down biological compulsion rather then seeking gratification by making yourself "different" and "unwholesome" towards women. Guys do dumb stuff when feel stirred up, going to chats, talking and provoking girls and then blame themselves for their behavior, that thing between legs can really make you problems you going to regret.

so if you feel you losing control just let poison out so you can be more sane. And just try to develop wisdom of seeing the body the way it is, to see this body as pus, bones, muscles, worms inside, small crawling things eating your skin, bacterias. It's only hormones who paint this bag of meat as desirable, if you have clear vision no human is desirable, generally we are all ugly no matter how much followers you have on instagram, if you look at your body sincerity and investigate it properly then desire naturally will fall off, but be aware if you start doing this investigation you will find libido sky rocketing like not ever before. sometimes I think nature knows what you are doing and will try to put down your cultivation and let you think "okay, let's go with normal life..." but do not give up.
We have to always remind ourselves that every type of kilesa is extremely tenacious. They are far more clever and cunning than we are. If we act foolishly and practice heedlessly and senselessly, then we will never be able to subdue or eliminate any of the kilesas, because they will always be more powerful, shrewd and crafty than we are, and that is why they are our master. We might think that we are the masters, but truly, we are not. We are just the kilesas’ servants without knowing it. All of our thoughts are initiated by the kilesas. :candle:

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby TonyConrad » Mon May 23, 2016 3:49 am

I think this should be counted as an intoxicant.
To me it is intoxicating, has led to porn, which led to ....

Destruction

It is the cause of suffering in the four noble truths.
They .. will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata ..are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. ..Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.

This, monks, is the fourth future danger .. work to get rid of it.

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Saoshun
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Saoshun » Mon May 23, 2016 5:16 am

TonyConrad wrote:I think this should be counted as an intoxicant.
To me it is intoxicating, has led to porn, which led to ....

Destruction

It is the cause of suffering in the four noble truths.


Yes, there is no scheme for this because it's compulsive. It will drag some people down deeper but for some people it can be remedy for making stupid things related to sexual nature, relations etc.
We have to always remind ourselves that every type of kilesa is extremely tenacious. They are far more clever and cunning than we are. If we act foolishly and practice heedlessly and senselessly, then we will never be able to subdue or eliminate any of the kilesas, because they will always be more powerful, shrewd and crafty than we are, and that is why they are our master. We might think that we are the masters, but truly, we are not. We are just the kilesas’ servants without knowing it. All of our thoughts are initiated by the kilesas. :candle:

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 23, 2016 5:40 am

TonyConrad wrote:I think this should be counted as an intoxicant.
To me it is intoxicating, has led to porn, which led to ....

Destruction

It is the cause of suffering in the four noble truths.
Don't blame masturbation. You, and you alone, are the one who makes the choice to act this way or that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Ben
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby Ben » Mon May 23, 2016 6:53 am

DC2R wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:
Bundokji wrote:What if a practitioner was raised in a society that praises masturbation and considers it a "virtue", how would that affect his/her sila, concentration and awareness?


That masturbation, if not done excessively, is a harmless and blameless enjoyment does in fact appear to be the prevalent view among educated people throughout the developed world, excepting only those with a religious commitment (Roman Catholic, for example) which instructs them otherwise.

I don't think this has any particular effect on these people's practice of the threefold training. If they decide to ordain or to become brahmacāri householders, then they simply take on the monkish perspective on masturbation and stop doing it. (Whether this will be a hard or an easy thing to do doesn't seem to be much affected by what beliefs about masturbation one was raised with). If they remain kāmabhogi householders then the practice (for those who do it) simply persists as one of the various non-transgressive sensual pleasures that they may enjoy from time to time.


End thread. :thumbsup:


I have to agree. Given Ajahn Dhamnanando's excellent and authoritative response, there really isn't any further need to continue this thread.
Anyone who feels more needs to be said - please refer to the 'great masturbation thread ' and be sure to read every post before requesting this thread be reopened or starting another thread on masturbation.
Ben
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loud gush the streamlets,
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