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Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept? - Page 12 - Dhamma Wheel

Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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greenjuice
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby greenjuice » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:56 am

Taking what is not given is the wording of the precepts. Yes, when you illegally download something, it is not given. But it is really taking? Goes for all intellectual property conundrum. Imagine if someone would to "steal" your car from your garage while you're sleeping by using some new technology that could copy the car. You wake up, get ready for work, go into your garage, get in your car, start it up and drive to work. You notice nothing, a day just like any other. Now, the state could proclaim the the use of this new car-copying technology to be theft, and people would get accustomed to charging other people for copying their cars, and if someone were to copy someone's car without the owners permission, he would be charged with theft. But from a common-sense perspective- was there theft? And from a Buddhist perspective- was something taken? Someone stealing your car while you sleep, you waking up and finding your car in absolutely the same condition as you left it, my personal opinion is that there's nothing there.

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Weakfocus
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Weakfocus » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:17 am

If a person, a company or an organization does not want you to take a copy of their creation without paying, and you download their content with torrents or filelockers, you are denying them some revenue. Of course, it is entirely possible that if downloading was not possible you would not buy the content anyway. A very convenient, hypothetical case. But it does not change the reality that the percept has already been been violated the moment you download the content.

Further, by using filelockers and torrents you are also helping others engage in unskillfull activity and contributing to violation of their percepts, too. Therefore to me it is unquestionably a violation of the percept.

Not that I am perfect and do not break any percepts....I have plenty of music and video content which I downloaded with torrents. Mayhaps some day I will evolve to the point I will not need that content (and/or will have enough cash to buy content), but today is not that day.

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greenjuice
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby greenjuice » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:24 pm

I am denying them revenue they expect to gain in exchange for giving me permission to use my own property in a certain way, without taking anything from them. It's not real property, it's just made up by the legal system. I have already explained- there is nothing taken. The only thing that is happening is the intellectual property rights holder trying, by threat of law, to limit what I can do with my own property even though by that use of my own property I don't hurt him or take anything from him.

Buckwheat
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Buckwheat » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:06 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:13 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Buckwheat
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Buckwheat » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:34 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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greenjuice
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby greenjuice » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:47 pm

In the theatre case, one is entering another's property without their permission. In the case of intellectual property rights, it the IP holder that prevents another to use his property in a certain way even though the IP holder's person or property is in no way affected by that use.

E.g. if I buy a book, it is my property. Thereby, I should be able to do anything I want with it- I can read it, put it under a piece of furniture that that isn't stable, I can burn it, toss it into tresh, give it as a gift or sell it. If I copy it and give it as a gift or sell it, I am in no way affecting the writer or his property, just as when burning the book or tossing it in the tresh. It is only the legal system that fictionally says that the ideas can be property, and orders me to give money to the writer if I want to copy and sell a book that is my property. IMO, it would be more proper to say that enforcement of intellectual property is robbery, then to say that "copyright infringement‎" is stealing.

Buckwheat
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:33 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:58 am

I would suggest those who engage in illegal downloading will never be able to make a good living as a musician, actor or software developer

even in Youtube, see those films and documentaries that have been uploaded by offical channels or producer's channels..else DONOT engage seeing them

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Doshin
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Doshin » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:48 am

Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma

Shaswata_Panja
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:43 pm

see what the free content culture is doing?

Today writers are starving to death and the quality of writing in major online outlets have taken a dive, tomorrow it will be musicians, then it will be software developers and then it will be actors, actresses and directors

we need to honour the people who provide us with mind food and just not iphone, ipads and laptops...what good they would be without such great content??


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greenjuice
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby greenjuice » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:31 pm


Buckwheat
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Buckwheat » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:15 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

Sylvester
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:33 am

On a somewhat related note about intellectual property and the Vinaya, there is this essay -

http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... -final.pdf

Very briefly, the monastic injunction against theft could plausibly be interpreted to apply only to chattels. Ven Pandita makes the argument that based on several origin stories, the diversion of "potential" gains will not count as theft that entails Defeat. He classifies the breach of the economic rights (he calls them the monopoly rights) in Copyrights as deprivation of potential gains, based on the judicial mechanism of assessing damages.

Not sure if the analysis applies to the 2nd Precept, although both the Vinaya and the 2nd Precept discuss adinnādāna.

D1W1
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby D1W1 » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:51 am

Something related to this thread, maybe a good source of information:

Does illegal downloading or viewing of copyright material violate the second precept?
http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/quest ... second-pre

steve19800
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby steve19800 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:26 am

Hi guys,

As you can see, there are many different views regarding downloading material from internet. I think if we try to understand them, both stealing and not stealing do make sense.

I'm wondering how do you guys come to a conclusion? Do you just follow the precept based on what you think is right or something else? Is there any source/Sutta that can help us understand more about this?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:47 am


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pilgrim
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:11 pm

Laws making downloading illegal are commercial laws, not precepts. These laws can be changed at any time. My precepts are not determined by officials in government. Furthermore, these laws only protect some kinds of copying not all as some forms of unprotected copying are perfectly legal. Again precepts should not be at the whim of who the govt decides to protect.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:04 pm


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ihrjordan
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Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?

Postby ihrjordan » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:57 pm

Maybe the problem isn't with those copying freely from someones conceptual idea meant to make a profit...but instead it's the creators fault for thinking that ideas could be owned and turned into profit...copywriting and trademarking are tools to limit information to only those that can afford it, I highly doubt the Buddha would have been for the limiting of information and knowledge to a select few


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